August 2, 2006 - 9:28pm
what is the dea black list and how or who is put on it and what for? i heard that you can be put on the list for doctor shoping. im not sure if that is even what it is or is it a form for otc meds or prescription meds?
August 3, 2006 - 3:45pm
#2
are you saying
are you telling me that if you were to be put on a dea list that you would be refused treatment and could die? a friend of mine has a hernia in his groin regon and hes affraid of surgery he thinks it might be torn. all he does is go to the hospital and to his family doctor tring to get pain meds and muscle relaxants to curb the constant pain. he gets a heads up from the hospital saying that he is on some sort of list for going to various hospitals in our area for pain meds. so what my question is: is this illegal for them to not help him?
August 3, 2006 - 4:00pm
#3
not exactly agaisnt the law.
not exactly agaisnt the law. it depends what you mean by help.
doctors/clinics/hospitals DO have the responsibility of treating patients no matter what the situation. However this doesn't mean that they have to treat w/ opiates or other medications of the patients choice. there are many non-narcotic options they can choose from.
sometimes hospitals do put the "frequent fly-er" tags on patients and this usually gives the doctors a good heads up of why they might be there. also sometimes the DEA will watch for patients getting multiple rx's filled at different pharmacy's from different doctors. However i am not familiar w/ the DEA actually teaming up w/ the medical professionals to tell them what to and not to rx. so i stand a bit skeptical on that aspect.
if your friend has a hernia it is very important that he get it fixed asap. hernias that protrude a long time can cause infection and make extremely ill or even kill. also doctor shopping at ER's will get extremely expensive since they aren't cheap. be a friend and get the guy some help.
all thoughts and opinions expressed are those of my own and should not be mistaken for medical advice. i am not a doctor nor a pharmacist. all medical questions should be answered by a licensed pharmacist, doctor, or primary care manager.
August 3, 2006 - 7:16pm
#4
Very insightful post
Very insightful post phiser.... but there are instances of where people have been refused treatment just because of malpractice accusations, but when it comes to medication the only thing to really be concerned about is becoming addicted to opiate pain meds. If there are medical reasons for the route of treatment then all should be fine unless like phisher said patients start to doctor shop.
My opinion is that a lawyer would have a field day if a patient claimed no treatment was provided and detramental patient information had been passed along for a legitimate prov-en diagnosis or medical reason. So in conclusion I believe that those doctors that practice this kind of patient gossip walk a fine line and can be held acountable for their actions, although the doctors do have the right to refuse treating a patient, the reason is what we should all pay attention and give as much light too.
My comments are my opinions based on the questions posted on this message board and should be taken purely as is and not as medical gospal. Please consult medical concerns with medical proffesionals. Thank You!
August 3, 2006 - 8:27pm
#5
as far as "malpractice
yes you are correct and i see where you are coming from.
as far as "malpractice accusations" are concerned, then that is completely different. i could see a doctor refusing certain services for that depending on the situation. for example; someone who has had four or five failed back surgeries, then i am sure any wise surgeon would refuse a fifth or sixth. i was more referring to a patient walking into a doctors office and the doctor just flat out saying "no", or "i wont refer you to another doctor, give you zantac, anything". though to be honest i am not sure exactly how that works and it is probably a bit different from state to state.
and just to clarify my earlier post when i mentioned the DEA not specifically attempting to dictate physicians rx, what i meant is that i personally didn't believe that DEA would attempt to impose certain restrictions on particular individuals/patients. it goes w/out say that there are a ton of cases of the DEA telling doctors to "cool it" b/c of their over zealous rx writing.
all thoughts and opinions expressed are those of my own and should not be mistaken for medical advice. i am not a doctor nor a pharmacist. all medical questions should be answered by a licensed pharmacist, doctor, or primary care manager.
August 29, 2006 - 3:48pm
#6
thank you for your insight
thank you for your insight this is a good site for research and forum topics
November 24, 2006 - 2:22pm
#7
DEA Blacklist
I was wondering that if someone was put on this DEA blacklist, is there a way for that individual to find out for sure if they are on the list? Is their a way to find out exactly what they are on the list for. Any information would be appreciated.
November 24, 2006 - 2:36pm
#8
Funny thing about
Funny thing about researching the list is that the first two results on a google search send you to this page.
gtrplayer
November 28, 2006 - 12:33am
#9
How i found out about this
How i found out about this is a friend of mine is in severe pain after a car accident she was taking all kinds of meds from imeadiate relese oxycodone to loritab to hydrocodone, you name it she was on it the doctor even told her to count how many times a day she would need to take the meds. so it was to she was getting 240 ir oxycodone 5mg once a month and vicoden 10mg also once a month so she said just out of the blue the doc came in and said that she was being put on the list that she should be careful. now they cut her completely off and she can barely move and she cant get any doctor to give her addiquate pain meds.
November 28, 2006 - 10:42am
#10
This is only an opinion, but
This is only an opinion But a couple of websites that deal with this type of thing are listed here. I self editted as I think I inadvertantly gave advice that is a little off topicThis link will take you to their website.
There is also The American Pain Foundation Both of these groups have resources concerning pain patients as well as caregivers of those in pain, code of ethics, and what to do if your pain is not being treated. In my opinion only, this is where your friend should look
gtrplayer
November 28, 2006 - 2:24pm
#11
Disturbing
I have no doubt that this occurs, I feel a insecure spot inside me that my "needed" pain meds will or could be pulled out from underneath me. It is unjust- and dr's will make you dr shop so to speak because they do not want your case or are baffled by it. In the last 3 years-since my accident- I have seen 24 different doctors, surgeons & neurologist's. All to the chain of command to being to "this is who we have to refere you too."-I have heard that way too many times. Finally went to the best Neurosurgeon & practice I could find-they took my case, did many procedures, mri's only to conclude-after a conferance with the all the dr.s at that hospital my case was way to multi faceted & way too risky. I saw a physiatrist, who wanted to cut the nerves in my neck, & I express to him I was emotionally & physically tired & quite frankly -PROCEDURED OUT.He accepted that last april after my 2nd visit with him & I was determined to fight and pick up my mat, do P.T. yadda, yadda -then in August I sat 4 hours in the waiting room feeling abandoned , after I registered with the front desk. My husband was disturbed it was 4:30pm (my time was 12:45pm) They took me last & said the front desk did not tell them I was their-(ya right) I could sense arrogance & reluctance on the Dr's part.And that was obvious when I was told after examination -see you in 6 months-got a script for norco.It had 1 refill, 3 a day.I called to talked to his nurse, who now was handling 4 different Dr.'s and misunderstood me, as I was placed on hold, she was interuptted, and our conversation was like a huge misunderstanding. I needed to ask ?'s -but I got burned, big time. So what next? of course you have to look for ANOTHER DOCTOR.So I guess being "custodial" care & not wanting my nerves severed in my neck-bottom line is adious. Has any one else experianced this kind of treatment? I am sorry to go on & on -thank you for listening and giving this topic any type of feedback. thankyou all so kindly-Teri
November 28, 2006 - 7:36pm
#12
DEA Black List
After reading all of the posts, I believe that there are two issues at hand. One the "Black List" is really more of a "Watch List" which is developed by the DEA as the result of several indicators. Primarily Doctor shopping, having several doctors prescribing the same medication, and utilizing several different pharmacies. The purpose of this is to regulate controlled substances and to look for criminal violations. In addition they search for patterns of Doctors over prescribing certain medications. If it is detected that someone is being prescribed the same medication from several different Doctors, those Doctors are notified of the patients that are abusing the prescription medication system. At this point, the Doctor who now feels that he/she has been taken advantage of would now document that the patient in question is "drug seeking." Which now gets to the second part this list issue. If you are documented by your Doctor as manipulating the prescription medication system then that will follow you along with your medical records where ever you go. I believe that what is being discussed it is not one list but rather two. I would imagine that the "DEA Watch List" would be limited to each state. However, as stated earlier your medical records always follow you. It is a shame that some doctors limit or are affraid to prescribe pain medication as a result of a few people that abuse the system. In addition I could also see how poor communication between the doctor and patient could result in a doctor fearing to prescribe pain medication.
THIS IS SOLELY MY OPINION BASED ON MY EXPERIENCE FROM SUFFERING WITH CHRONIC PAIN.
November 28, 2006 - 8:01pm
#13
Excellent Post Toto
I understand what you are saying & I do agree with your observation.I know the "system" so to speak is used. And it jeopordizes True Chronic pain sufferer's as well as Dr's feeling compromised & their license could be under scrutiny.Pain is invisable & secludes one off to a place that is isolating. I hope in truth that this will be resolved.My medical records speak for themself -I need to fill a medication because I have used it properly-Insurance company & my records tell the story. Thanks!
November 28, 2006 - 9:18pm
#14
Two things, 1st, is there a
Two things, 1st, is there a way to find out if you're on the list or not, and 2nd, are there any other ways to end up on the list besides being "referred" by a doctor?
November 28, 2006 - 9:22pm
#15
Good Question
Hope some one knows the answer to this. This presents a much needed answer!
November 28, 2006 - 11:13pm
#16
what i dont get is this: she
what i dont get is this: she is in major back pain, the doc gave her just about everything then the doctor said ok take these and tell me how many you need a day.? (oxycodone ir 5mg) also here is a perscription for 120 hydrocodone 10/650. so the next doctor visit came and she told him what she was taking and the doc told her she would be getting 240 oxycodone a month pluss the hydrocodone. seems like alot to me but she is in alot of pain. now 3 months later the doc comes in and looks her over no change he goes out and comes back in 20 minutes later and said you have been blacklisted. but here is your perscription be careful. next month she missed her doctor app. then they cut her off like that. can they do that? now all she can get is some weak tramadol and 800mg ibprofin that barely puts a dent in the pain as she puts it.
November 29, 2006 - 12:22am
#17
blueangel
AS far as being on any type of list generated by the DEA, the public would not have access to it. That list would be considered by the agency as an investigative tool. On the other hand, if you were on a list generated by the medical profession for abusing or suspected of abusing prescription medication I would think that a Doctor would make you aware of it. By doing so, that would be the justification for denying you the pain medication. Seven1Seven dude stated in a post that a patinet had been advised of being "Black listed." by the Doctor. He also added that the patient had later missed an appointment and at that point he discontinued prescribing pain medication. Missing appointments are huge for Doctors prescribing pain medications. In-fact that is often one of the conditions listed in pain medication contracts. These contracts are becoming popular with many doctors who treat patients who suffer from chronic pain.
Again these are just my theories based on my experience in dealing with chronic pain.
November 29, 2006 - 7:40pm
#18
depends
All I can think of raises the question.... Was she seeing more than one Dr. ? Had she been getting other scripts and filling them at separate pharmacies?
If so most Dr.s require you to sign their wavier stating that you will NOT accept pain killers from any other Dr's AND they will ONLY use 1 pharmacy to fill their script so the Dr can monitor them
If at any time a patient beaks these rules they can be put on that list.
Again only my theory
Danielle ~~~ in the lovely state of Florida
*** All replies to questions/comments are of my own opinion. I do not and have not ever worked in the medical field.
November 30, 2006 - 6:43pm
#19
that is it you nailed it on
that is it you nailed it on the head the doctor made her sign a waver, but she said that she didnt do anywrong she hadent seen any other doctor except one time she had a real sharp pain in her back and she went to the hospital and the doctor at the hospital asked her what she was taking and she said the oxy ir and hydrocodone 10s but she said that she didnt take them much cuz they made her itch so the doctor gave her 20 oxycodone 10/325s till she could get to her doctor appt. she said that she told the nurse at the doctors and they said that was fine and that she would tell the doctor that the oxy 5s werent working. the nurse came back with the same script(oxy 5mg and hydro 10mg) and said that the doctor was in surgery or something, that she could call him the next day. so she called the next day told the doc and he told her to pick up the script of percocet 10/325 120 of them next month she went in and thats when he told her that she was on the list and that she should be careful
November 30, 2006 - 6:54pm
#20
Has anyone been able to find
Has anyone been able to find any Proof that the Drug Enforcement Agency in the United States actually has this "blacklist"? I think, In my opinion only that this is more of a case of a suspected conspiracy theory by patients, so to speak. I have not been able to find a DEA blacklist anywhere. What about doctors offices that do not use computer databases for their patients? Granted, my pain management group has huge profiles of each of their patients, which in my opinion is a good thing. But, I can not find anywhere that such a list even exists. I am only asking for a link to a credible website, not personal experiences or what their doctors have told them.
gtrplayer
November 30, 2006 - 7:17pm
#21
Blacklist
Gtr, I also am still trying to find a link to any information about a DEA Blacklist and have yet to find any information on it at all.
I do know for sure though that many hospital emergency rooms have something similar to a "blacklist". The emergency rooms here document how many times you have been there, the reason for the visit, and all meds that were prescribed to you. I'm sure that most if not all ER's do this. Here in Southwest Virginia, if you visit a emergency room, before you are even taken back, the doctors review your medical history and thoroughly look at your past visits. Some doctors will refuse to see you if you are a "regular". I don't know if that is legal or not but it does happen.
If you make too many trips to the ER for the same reason, ex, headaches, toothaches, back pain, etc. they become suspicious of you and think that you are just trying to get pain meds. This has happened to a few of my friends. One of my friends had a tooth to break off and she was in severe pain. I took her to the ER because she didn't have any insurance and couldn't afford to see a dentist. They gave her a antibiotic and pain meds to last for about 2 days. We made a appointment with a free dental clinic but the only available day that they had was 3 weeks away. After the pain meds ran out, the only option for her was to return to the ER because of the insurance problem. She explained that she had made an appointment and that she was still in pain and couldn't bear it until she could be seen at the clinic. The doctor refused to give her any more medication and also told her that he was going to "flag" her chart so that if she ever returned to the ER for any reason, the doctors would know that she previously was "flagged" for seeking pain meds. This was only her second time she was ever seen at the ER.
I have heard that this has happened to many people and have even overheard ER nurses talking about patients that have been "flagged".
anyways, sorry or the long post but I wanted you to know about the "flagging".
December 1, 2006 - 6:36pm
#22
Completely Unfair
It is against the Hippocratic oath for a doctor to leave pain untreated.
they don't have to use narcotics but if a person is in pain they must do something. What that doctor did was in my opinion unprofessional and down right rude of course I don't know the whole story.
Personally if it was me I would be complaining to the hospital administrators and to the state medical boards.
I have only been treated poorly by an ER doctor once and he was reported. For the most part everytime I visit a hospital in my town I am treated very well and even asked if I need pain meds. To which I always answer no as I have a pain contract and would not want to jeopardize it.
December 4, 2006 - 1:16am
#23
Unfortunately when the
Unfortunately when the hippocratic oath meets bureaucracy, guess which one wins?
December 4, 2006 - 4:18am
#24
WOW! HERE IS DISTURBING!
WELL, FLORIDA HAS ABOUT THE WORST (STRICTEST) POLICY OF WATCHING DR.'S AND PATIENTS/SCRIPTS...BUT THERE WAS JUST A DATELINE SPECIAL THAT WOULD BLOW YOU AWAY! GUY MOVES DOWN HERE TO FLA FROM N.Y. WHERE HE HAD ALWAYS BEEN ON A LOT OF PAIN MED THERE. HE CAN NOT REALLY WALK W/OUT THE MED...WHEELCHAIR BOUND, BUT W/MED HE HOBBLES ABOUT, WAS EVEN SHOWN ON PHARM CAMERA DURING THIS SHOW. ANYWAY, THE N.Y. DR. WAS APPARANTLY SENDING HIM "UNDATED" SCRIPTS SO HE WOULD NEVER FIND HIMSELF IN BAD SHAPE AS THE FLA DOCS HE WENT TO UPON MOVING HERE TOLD HIM, "THERE IS NO WAY WE CAN RX YOU THIS AMOUNT OF MED...THEY WILL FLAG US". OF COURSE WHEN THE "BUST" WENT DOWN, DATELINE SAID THE N.Y. DOC WAS SCARED TO LOSE HIS LICENSE (FOR SENDING SOMEWHAT BLANK SCRIPTS) OUT TO A STATE HE WAS NOT EVEN A LICENSED PHYSICIAN IN...SO HE LAWYERED UP AND LIED, SAID THE SCRIPTS WERE STOLEN, FORGED...THE GUY WAS OFFERED A SWEETHEART DEAL, AFTER HAVING BEEN CHARGED W/VERY SERIOUS CRIMES B/C OF QUANTITIES (TRAFFICKING, ETC.), EVEN THOUGH THERE WAS NEVER ANY EVIDENCE OR WITNESS TESTIMONY THAT HE DID ANY SELLING/DEALING...HE WAS A LAWYER HIMSELF, A HUSBAND AND DAD TO YOUNG KIDS, HE HAD BEEN IN A HORRIBLE CAR WRECK. THE DEAL WOULD BE TO PLEAD TO JUST A MINOR CRIME, A SMALL ASPECT OF THE CASE AND HE WOULD WALK...NO JAIL. HE TOLD DATELINE THAT THE PAIN GETS SO BAD HE WANTS TO KILL HIMSELF AT TIMES, THAT ONLY B/C OF THE MED CAN HE EVEN COPE...WELL, THE CATCH? PLEADING EVEN TO THE MOST MINOR OF CHARGES RELATED TO ANY SCRIPT FRAUD MEANT HE WOULD BE "BLACK LISTED" BEING A LAWYER HE KNEW THE RULES/RAMIFICATIONS OF PLEADING GUILTY. HE COULD NOT LIVE LIKE THAT, SO HE WENT TO TRIAL...HE WAS FOUND GUILTY (BY JURORS WHO WERE INTERVIEWED AND FEEL LIKE ???$* NOW, AS THEY HAD NO IDEA HOW SERIOUS THE PENALTIES WERE, AND HAD BEEN CONVINCED BY THE D.A. THAT NOBODY COULD TAKE THAT MANY PILLS A DAY) AND WAS SENTENCED TO 25 YEARS IN PRISON...YES, THAT IS 25 YRS! WHY THE STORY? WHAT WAS DATELINES BIG MOMENT? WELL... HE NOW RECEIVES HIS DAILY DOSES OF OPIATES COMPLIMENTS OF THE FL. DEPT. OF CORRECTIONS, YUP, AT TAX PAYERS EXPENSE AND AN EVEN LARGER/STRONGER AMOUNT THAN WHAT HE HAD BEEN ON!!! OF COURSE IT IS BEING APPEALED AND THE N.Y. DOC IS NOW BEING LOOKED AT CLOSELY AS IT MAKES NO SENSE THAT THIS GUY WAS ABLE TO GET HIS HANDS ON ALL THESE SCRIPTS (EVEN HAD A HANDWRITING EXPERT SAY THE DOC WROTE THEM EXCEPT FOR DATE). SO THAT IS THE SICK, TWISTED SYSTEM OF PRESCRIPTION PAIN MED IN THE WONDERFUL STATE OF FLORIDA...UNBELIEVABLE!
December 4, 2006 - 4:21am
#25
A little bit of research
A little bit of research will also show you that his wife is one of the spokespersons for the American Pain Association, or the Partners Against Pain. I can't remember which one right off hand, but they list this guy's story on there as well. I'll dig it up tomorrow, too tired right now.
gtrplayer
October 12, 2008 - 10:59am
#26
constant pain and no meds
My husband had a back surgery,they went through the front and put in L3 and L4 donor bone,when he came home a week and a half later,he was dying and noone new why and after 2 weeks they found a huge abscess where they did the suerguery he was almost going into septic shock,now that it happend the surgey didnt take,the donor bone ic gone and the metal plate they put in his back,all the 4 screws are lose and they wont do the surgey because I smoke second hand smoke,they say thats why the suregery didnt take,i didnt smoke around him at all \,now he is in pain he has been on vicodin for 5 years and his body is so immune to it,it done work anymore,so now he takes 10 a day cause they wont up his dose,andhe does concrete we have no choice he has to work,now he has to go to emergency rooms and get treated bad because he runs out early and wont up his dosage,he'll go to the emerengcy room and they wont up his dose and gets treated bad now the doctor wants to ween him off but he cant do that then he wont be able to work and well end up homeless,he needs something when he gets off work cause he cant move when he comes home,So now what is he suppose to do,all these doctors dont understand and think he not taking them because he takes so many they accused him of selling them.How do we get more help?
October 12, 2008 - 12:54pm
#27
Like another has stated the
Like another has stated the hospital of course keeps track on patients for whom have come in and received pain meds. And after awhile of course they will determine if it is best to continue someone on narcotic pain meds at the hospital of course. Most hospitals staff and docs are trained to believe the narcotic pain meds are the ones that mask and the ones to deter their patients from. After awhile they will decide not to treat a patient with narcotic pain meds at the hospital the patient has been to in cases multiple times for pain episodes. And usually a hospital will not distribute a narcotic pain med to a patient for whom is precribed narcotic pain meds. Docs make mistakes at times by jumping to conclusions. And I doubt the dea has anything to do with it when a doc decides to remove a patient off of narcotic pain meds sometimes like the one in question here now for uncalled reasons. Threaten them with a law suit and they'll sing a different tune. Usually only the county docs will know your previous doc has discontinued your opiate pain meds. Unless you provide them with your history from that particular doc who may have made a mistake by removing you from opiate pain meds. I have personally never signed a pain contract. And I have been on opiate pain meds for eleven years. I know people personally who have. As I know it is best to stay with one doctor for your pain management or you can be removed from the pain meds you have become accustomed to in releiving the severity of ones pain. People make mistakes and should be given second chances with their docs. Some people don't understand how important it is to only ingest what it is that your pm doc precribes you as scheduled. I hope the best for everyone here who needs and is taking their meds as precribed.
October 28, 2008 - 1:28pm
#28
Yikes
Now I'm all nervous. I had no idea about that watchlist. I fill my prescriptions all over the place depending on what I'm doing that day. If I'm at the grocery, I do it there. If Im going to the gym, I do it over there. Sometimes I take it to the one right by the doctors office. The pharmacy closest to my house doesn't cary and won't order oxycontin. (weird). So I have to go to a different pharmacy for that.
So now I'm afraid I'll get on that list. I also just got over menengitis in which I had to go to the ER several times. Anyone who has ever had menengitis knows how bad the headache is. So they gave me narcs every time I went in. I'm sure they flagged me! And I DID fill the prescriptions, because I figured why waste it? Ya know?
I may have screwed myself without realizing. It's unfortunate, because I honestly was not trying to "score drugs."
I would be devastated if my Pain Doc found out and thought I wasn't being above board.
I am glad I found this post, because now I know, and can start fresh from here if it is not too late.
October 28, 2008 - 2:11pm
#29
I dont think you have
I dont think you have anything to worry about. You can fill scripts in as many different pharmacies as you want its once you start filling controlled substances from different doctors for the same condition that you are going to run into a problem. Going to the ER multiple times on different occaisions and gettings scripts is perfectly acceptable because they usually only give you a small amount to get over your acute symptoms. The only thing you would have to worry about is that sometimes pain docs have written contracts saying you wont take narcotics from any other docs and only go through your pm doc.
As far as I know DEA Blacklisting is when a doctor rules that a patient main objective is to feed an addiction or doctor shop. Once you are put on a black list it is somewhat impossible to get pain medication even for legitimate reasons. You can also be listed if you try to file malpractice or any other negligence law suit.
A patient being blacklisted can go from doctor to doctor to doctor without getting diagnosed or treated and never know why. Blacklisting can result in permanent harm or even death and can be criminally illegal.
My comments are my opinions based on the questions posted on this message board and should be taken purely as is and not as medical gospal. Please consult medical concerns with medical proffesionals. Thank You!