August 30, 2009 - 1:46am
#52
very well put Solo
very well put Solo
August 30, 2009 - 4:47pm
#53
Thanks solo for your post!!
Thanks solo for your post!! I know you know a lot about meds. I was on oxycodone 15 mgs qid. Then I dropped down to oxycodone 15 mgs tid. Then my dr dropped me down to percs 10/325 bid. I really need one more perc a day for the 3rd day of my patch. I want to go back to oxycodone and get the 5's so I will not have to be on APAP too long. I really do not get a euphoria feeling with the percs. Maybe it is because I have been on much higher doses for so long. But anyway, I'll ask my question again. Anyone ever taken the Mylan percs, if so how do you compare them to others? Just curious. Take care, htmom
BTW I was on about 80 mgs of Oxyfast a day before being put on the oxycodone 15 mgs qid.
August 30, 2009 - 11:03pm
#54
htmom, Ive never tried the
htmom, Ive never tried the mylans. Just wanted to add that I actually dislike every formulation of 5mg IR without APAP that Ive tried. Ive tried 5mg IR tablets from Mallinckrodt, 5mg IR Tablets Qualitest, 5mg IR capsules Ethex, 5mg IR Capsules Mallinckrodt, and 5mg IR Capsules Glenmark. I guess it would be fair to say I prefer the tabs over the caps but I still dont like them. I was allowed to take three 5mg tabs a day instead of a 15mg tablet when I was cutting back and for some reason it didnt feel the same as the 15mg tablet and both the 5mg and 15mg where from Qualitest that month. For some reason I prefer the qualitest or watson 5/325 percs over the low dose IR tabs/caps.
August 31, 2009 - 4:06am
#55
I agree, for some reason a
I agree, for some reason a 15mg oxy ir works better than three 5mg oxy ir. I actually like the 15mg over two of the 10/325 oxy/apap.
August 31, 2009 - 7:34pm
#56
I don't claim to be
I am a pharmacist. The last reference I checked said 90-110%, and it wasn't wikipedia. But you are correct that it is 80-125 percent which is what accounts for the highly variable response to certain medications. I don't do manufacturing, I'm in retail. My bad, I made one error on something. I forgot I was supposed to be accurate 100 percent of the time. And even if the ratio was slightly off, the effect is still the same. Claiming a 20% difference is insignificant is absolutely inaccurate, especially for low therapeutic window drugs like warfarin and digoxin, where 20% means the difference between therapeutic and toxic effects. The confidence interval you are talking about is based on dissolution methods on human test subjects in clincal trials for prospective generic drugs. The p-value of the proposed generic as compared to the brand drug has to fall on this confidence interval in order to be considered bioequivalent, usually with a two sided t-test. The actual dosage difference of the medication as compared to the brand varies depending on what dose fell onto the confidence interval. Its not as simple as taking a pill, and all the medication goes right into the blood stream. If the pill doesn't dissolve properly, then the active ingredient doesn't get absorbed and peak blood concentrations aren't reached. The AUC is the total amount of the dose absorbed; therefore, two drugs may list the same active ingredient in terms of milligrams, but may have higher or lower AUC's but still will fall within the confidence interval. But what do I know. 
September 1, 2009 - 12:02am
#57
Njrx242 wrote: 20% Rule is
Njrx242 wrote:
20% Rule is Absolutely correct I am a pharmacist, and the person who posted that generics are allowed a 20% difference to the brand concentration is correct. Generic companies have to take the brank drug concentration, say 5 milligrams as an example, and have their product be within 95-115% for it to be acceptable. Therefore, a drug could theoretically have an extra 15% of the active ingredient compared to the brand. It true, I know a great deal about the manufacturing process seeing as how I spent an internship with Merck in NJ and I know the generic product laws.
You are clearly trying to imply in your earlier post that generic medications can have a variance in the actual amount of active ingredient. I am not here to flame or pick on people. I here mearly to give fact based information from the most reputable sources, in this case the FDA not wiki either. I dont use wiki since normal people like yourself can add whatever they want there.
September 1, 2009 - 12:23am
#58
Also, I did say that with
Also, I did say that with most medications 20% difference in plasma levels is insignificant. However one could go as far as saying that a +/- 20% difference is completely insignificant or the FDA wouldnt allow Tmax,Cmac or AUC to be between 80-120% of the reference medication. If the variance did apply to the actual amount of active ingredient in the tablets +/-20% in most medications would probably result in either a sub potent or super potent recall to the consumer level.
Now to further add to the conversation, when we start talking about how inactive ingredients can effect how a medication is absorbed, in this case we would be talking about Dissolution tests. Not only do medications have to be considered Bioequivalent in a 90% Confidense Interval they also have to dissolve in a similar manner as the brand reference and this is proved with Dissolution testing.
October 3, 2009 - 2:03am
#59
A lot of variables.
I've had some experience with many medications from many manufacturers and I hope I can help add something to the discussion.
Things to keep in mind when debating generic vs. brand name:
No company wants to lose profit. If this can be avoided they will do so. This can take many forms. In the case of a company producing both a generic and a brand name side by side you can bet the "freshest" ingredients go into their top shelf products before they hit the generics. After all, what purpose does it serve to even sell brand names if they are exactly the same? Who would bother buying the brand names?
So as an example lets take our favorite 5mg oxycodone which can be found as oxycodone HCL in both a generic and brand name. Sure they both have the same ingredient. One may feel less potent. Some could attribute this to the differing makeup of the fillers however the fillers are generally inactive and therefore shouldn't affect the active ingredient that we are looking at.
Ok so now what could be affecting the ingredient? Well we do have expiration dates on our pharmaceuticals and it stands to reason they would also have the same types of expiration going on with their ingredients.
The company either produces their own batches of the synthetic opiates or contracts another source to do so. Before we get into THAT mess lets stick with all things being the same and say each and every batch of the company's ingredients are 100% accurate with no +/- to deal with. Ok so now we have all this chemical we need to make medications with. Well perhaps we have only so much filler ready and therefore can only utilize half of our active ingredient in this production run, so this leaves us a bit for the next batch. Great! We won't run out any time soon... Well a bit of time passes before we decide to make our second run and decide, well we have generics to make as well... why put an older ingredient into our top shelf product that is the pinnacle of our pharmacology when we can use our leftover dross for th egenerics. It is the same after all, a little oxidation won't hurt it much...
And following this line we can find at least one cause of variation in strength of the medications. Sadly the pharmaceutical companies are given some leeway in regards to what is acceptable and still considered a viable product. If it falls within this range then we can offer it as the exact same ingredient and no one should be able to tell the difference. Right? Well not so much.
There are a few books (yiyles escape me at the moment but it is a common topic easily searchable) out there that I encourage folks to read because there is some interesting information in them regarding pharmaceutical companies, shipments, middle men, and crime which results in a tainted market. Now this isn't to say that our system is completely broken and it is a &*&? shoot but it has been known from time to time, to have knock-offs and counterfeit medications entering into circulation.
This leads us to other issues which make the situation even more convoluted.
The bottom line is this... if something works for you great. Keep doing it. If something doesn't and YOU know it doesn't, you have the right to speak up and demand to have your concern addressed.
For the most part from my experience I have endured both brand name and generic and I don't experience much of a difference if at all. Sometimes the subtle differences are from pill to pill, rather than manufacturer to manufacturer. I'll take the generics because they are affordable and I have a cast iron constitution to deal with the varying fillers. If a generic isn't working I'll go to the source and see what we can do to resolve the issue.
That said I currently have a &*&? batch of brand name meds that I am going to have my pharmacist take a look at so he can send them back to the manufacturer and get the problem fixed.
And yes sometimes it does come down to your mindset and psychological state. If you believe you will get inferior medication when going generic you likely will. Your mind is pretty powerful when it comes to enhancing the effects of pain. I only wish it were easy to make it do the reverse. Then I could imagine my pepsi washing away my aches :P
Take it easy everyone.
P.S. Pharmaceutical companies and dispenseries should NOT be allowed to cover their lables with other information. It should state EXACTLY what the ingrediencs are not what it is equivalent to. If someone orders oxycodone they ordered oxycodone, NOT oxycodone HCL.
October 3, 2009 - 5:51am
#60
7 year patent
whatever drug the company or drug a company comes out with FIRST, for instance watson makes a lortab ten that is oval an blue with 540 imprinted on one side an its scored in the middle on the other side so for 7 yrs it cannot be duplicated because they have a 7yr patent on it, but after 7yrs a generic form of it can be made, an it's sold at a lower price.but there are no doubts that generic brand medicines are just as good as the name brand ,only the color an shape varys.the meds in the generic are the same strenght as the brand name.you have a good point about the freshness of the ingredints jynxed but the companies already know what there cost is for each pill so therefore for the first 7 yrs they will make top dollar for their product an at the end of 7 yrs they can call it a generic an sell it at a lower price but they a still making money off their product plus reaching some people that could not afford it before an like you said by this time you have people who will only buy brand name meds. so in reality iits a win win situation for the drug companys cause they have expanded they market to all that can buy there product one way or the other.cause the truth be known these companies could sell there products at a generic price the first day it hits the market but they dont they put the brand name price on it. i believe that they are being greedy or you could call it the fleecing of america.we the land of the free but we are taxed to death an priced gouged on everything. write back an let me know what you think.
October 23, 2009 - 9:06am
#61
5-325 vs. 10-325 Endo
I have been taking 2 Percocet/Endo 5-325 tablets three times a day for many years. Last month I didn't check the perscription and it was for 10-325/Endo.
NOT THE SAME!!! It made me ill, I did not get that "rush" after taking them, nor did I experience the "I love you" side effect. It felt like they were time-release oxycontin that I dislike for that reason. I need that kick to get my 70+ year old body moving (everything hurts but it still works).
It could be the 20% generic issue, but it very definitely is not in my head. Don't think I have ever tried Percocet Brand so I can't comment on that.
Incidenally, rather than suggesting people are "wrong" or argue about percentages, I would like to hear what people are experiencing. If we are taking this stuff it is obvious we are in touch with our bodies more that egg heads that try to diagnose over the Internet. Blessings.
October 23, 2009 - 9:20am
#62
I take
the 10/325 endocet and it is fine with me..I had been taking the mali 5/325 for maybe 8 years before trying the endo. more leftover meds at the end of the month using endo...
November 6, 2009 - 6:45am
#63
Brand vs Generic
I don't care any longer! After reading this whole thread, I have laughed so hard that my chronic back pain just went away! Laughter truly is the best medicene! Absolutley Hilarious! :)
November 6, 2009 - 1:40pm
#64
As a chronic pain patient, I
As a chronic pain patient, I can honestly say I have never laughed so hard it stopped my pain. Also, you may think it is funny until it happens to you. Pain meds are very important to someone who suffers day in and day out. I would rather read about someone who ... than someone who laughs at our issues. I just have compassion for people who suffer chronic pain. We may not always agree but I can say I have never laughed at another human being suffering. Laughter is the best medicine, but not always appropriate.
htmom, it is extremely rare to find someone who doesnt get some degree of euphoria (false sense of well being, which IMHO doesnt necessarily mean the same as getting high) that goes along with there pain relief. Its a good thing that you and your doc have your meds so finely tuned. When opiates/opiods attach to the receptors in ur spinal cord they block signals of pain to the brain but when they attach to the receptors in your brain they trigger the reward and pleasure aspects that go along with those receptors, this is why people get addiceted to opiates. I didnt mean to indicate the opiates only work by causing euphoria or that most people rate there effectiveness by the amount of euphoria that is felt. However since IMO opiates/opioids chiefly relieve pain by causing a false sense of well being which in turn makes the user essentially forget about there pain one could rate there medications effectiveness on how much euphoria is felt.