Suboxone Saved And Gve Me Back My Life

I don't know really what you came here thinking, or if you thought that you would come on here and introduce everyone to your "miracle pill" and they would be grateful to you, but have you read anything on this site before posting? Did you search through previous posts for suboxone?

Your posts sound like an ad really, are you being paid by the makers of suboxone? Advertising for your cover and all just sounds sketchy. I don't mean to offend if your intentions are true and pure, however, coming on here and posting like this makes it sound like you are belittling everyone else who has posted experience with suboxone. 

like I said, sorry if you are being sincere, it just doesn't sound like you are. 

I'm a social worker, not a medical professional. All comments and thoughts are simply my opinion and experience.

basically its made by doctors/professionals and is all about substance abuse, from the beginning to the end, right?

I'm a social worker, not a medical professional. All comments and thoughts are simply my opinion and experience.

hey, I'm not the one who asked, but I'm sure gtrplayer asked just to be sure. We try not to make assumptions on here.

We all post on here for several different reasons. Many people started out just trying to identify a pill or ask a question, then ended up sticking around. I came for the same reason, and ended up telling my story and dispensing my own opinions and advice. It took awhile before I was recognized and taken as credible; now I even have people come to me personally to ask my opinion or ask for my advice on certain things.

I do believe I have contributed a great amount to this site, although not as much as the top posters like gtrplayer and phisher! LOL  If you must know or ask, all you need to do is look at my track and see what I have wrote to others. I love to help whenever I can, as you can tell since that is what most social workers do

So, now I ask the same thing back- what do you hope to contribute or gain from being here? 

I'm a social worker, not a medical professional. All comments and thoughts are simply my opinion and experience.

yes, I read the part of it being intended for those who have or know someone who has suffered- I thought you were saying that statement at first to disclude us, or saying don't comment if you don't know- I was just saying that we all probably know or have experience- sorry, I keep giving really long explanations. basically i was saying everyone on here probably knows something about it. lol

 i keep saying "we" as in all the regular posters on here. "we" all talk to each other, or reply to each other on a regular basis. "We" also could mean pharmer as a group since it is a large group of people who are members. Eventually you may even be included in the "we" I keep refering to . I know you weren't talking to me directly, I know, i keep getting confusing refering to "we" and "me" and regulars and such, so I will just stop LOL!

I am sorry if you felt I was attacking you, I tried to explain why I questioned you since it felt like you had alterior motives. That's why I said sorry if your intentions are real or true. I have been on here for I would say at least a little while now, so yes I do think I can question people if it is not clear what their motives are.  There are some regulars on here who have more clout than others, and that gives them a reason to ask questions.

But like I said before, I don't think and have never said that I have all the answers. In fact, I wouldn't really have alot to give about a topic such as suboxone since I do not have personal experience with it. The most I had was what others have posted, at least until I started doing my own research since many people did not know alot about this topic. 

I thank you for the information about "Disease of Addiction". That is also good that you actually have a source (as alot of people do just give opinion and try to pass it as fact). This is something that I have not seen on here previously so it will be much appreciated!

I hope you do not take too much offense to what I have said, as you said i came off strong, but when I first read your post, you came off strong as well. I'm sure many others would have got defensive too if they had been on here at the time. Even now the high posters are asked to explain themselves as well, so please dont feel like you are being singled out.

I'm a social worker, not a medical professional. All comments and thoughts are simply my opinion and experience.

No, asking questions is not making assumptions-that is why they are questions. Instead of just assuming something, like just saying I know you came here for -----, I asked you instead. saying I don't know if you thought this or this or this but have you ----? is a question so I can find out why you did stuff. The way you were talking about suboxone as a "Miracle Pill" and how much it changed your life sounds like a testimonial that would be on a commercial, so yes, I am going to ask if you are being paid instead of just assuming.

Is this not a cover that you will be on that you wrote about on the top of your other post?

I'm a social worker, not a medical professional. All comments and thoughts are simply my opinion and experience.

If I were assuming I would have said something like "I dont like that you came on here thinking everyone would love you. I know you didn't look at anything else", etc. I wouldn't have asked you all those questions if I were assuming- I guess I just come on too strong when I ask questions. (My man says that all the time at home! LOL) 

I'm a social worker, not a medical professional. All comments and thoughts are simply my opinion and experience.

25% of all Americans have chronic pain.  Most of these are probably managed without or with just occasional narcotic use. 

As for the cause of addiction, I really believe that some people are geneticly predisposed.  As long as they never experiment with narcotics, or need to take strong narcotics long term, they are fine.  When they experiment with narcotics or are prescribed strong narcotics over a longer period of time, their brain reacts differently than it would in most other people.  The narcotic gives them an elevated sense of well-being.  If they have some underlying psychologic disorder like depression or chronic anxiety, the elevated sense of well-being is even more notable.   The immediacy of the effect of the narcotic on mood is immediate and so it is self-reinforcing, unlike the antidepressants which can take weeks to start working.  Add a chronic pain component, and a  natural desire to be pain-free which encourages the use of more than the prescribed amount , or a doctor who undertreats chronic pain, and physical tolerance, then you get addiction.

I, like many people who have participated in the discussions here, just don't get it.  Narcotics don't elevate my mood.  So I might develop physcial dependance, but not addiction.  I remember a conversation I had with a narcotic addict.  Her drug of choice, hydrocodone.  I asked her how it made her feel when she took it.  She said it made her feel  confident and powerful, like she could do anything.  It almost sounded like someone describing hypomania. 

A couple of the chronic pain patients I have voluntarily go through a period of mild withdrawl when I change their medications, because they don't want to take really high doses.  One patient was a little paniced because he thought that 100mcg/hour of Fentanyl TD was the highest he could be prescribed and if he was feeling OK, would ask for a downward dosage adjustment so he would have something in reserve when the pain increased again. 

Prescription narcotic addiction is a "white collar" addiction.  A lot of narcotics are used by addicted chronic pain patients themselves.  Sometimes prescription narcotics are used as a last resort by people who are financially destitute.  Either sell your narcotics or turn tricks.  Debilitated senior citizens have been known to sell their narcotics and are usually not suspected of being drug dealers by their physicians.  Some narcotics reach the streets through theft (lock up your medication and never tell anyone you are on narcotics or benzodiazapines).  The other source is overseas mail order.  You can never be sure of the quality of identity of what you are getting, but it will be cleaner than heroin.

I would be interested in knowing what other people think.  

I think this is a wonderful drug for some. Although I wasn't too succesful with it. I know a number of people whom I attend NA meetings that take it and brag about thier success with it. Im not really sure if I can really consider the use of this drug as "real" recovery. It's a hot topic in the NA rooms around my area. I do however agree that Suboxone is a better alternative to Methadone. I wouldn't wish Methadone treatment on my worst enemy! I done the Methadone treatment and it made me worse when I relapsed on Oxycontin 3 days after discontinuing the dose treatment. The best treatment is abstinance from opiates totally and not other medications to treat the addiction. Im not trying to act like an expert when telling someone how to go about recovery. I can quit but I seem to have a problem staying quit. Ive had up to 2 years clean time without the use of Suboxone or Methadone and went out and relapsed....However, I have learned that relapse is a process and not a spur of the moment thing. I still struggle with Oxycodone addiction from day to day. Recovery is a wonderful thing but at the same time we as Opiate addicts must be optimistic and realistic at the same time.

Dr. Lois, when you were describing how someone can be predisposed to become addicted, and then what they go through, it sounded like you were talking directly about me! I have always told people that I have an "addictive personality". Some laugh, but all the women in my family are this way. whether it is a drug, a lifestyle, or a relationship with another person, we all have a tendency to become addicted very quickly.

It's like when you first get in a relationship, and you're together for say, about three weeks. You split up, but you just can't get over them. It feels like you're not right w/out them, they were always meant to be there, and you don't know what ot do with out them. It's like you get addicted to that person, understand?

that's why when I was growing up as a teenager, and everyone offers all the illegal drugs that you know have a high addiction rate, but everyone always at least trys- I would stay five feet away from it all! i was so afraid to try anything because if I liked it once, I could get addicted. but of course, it all may have just been in my head.

When I first started taking vic's they gave me extra energy. I took one and felt like I could do anything! After my injury and i was prescribed them all the time, that feeling changed. Of course, I started building a tolerance and had to take more, but i've always been afraid of "self-medicating" because I'd run out. I've been on them for over three years now, I started at 1 5/500 every couple hours, now you all know I am at 3 10/325 Norco's every couple hours. But they don't last as long anymore either.

Vic's (hydrocodone) used to take up to 45 minutes to kick in after taking them, now it takes about 10-20 minutes at the most. It lasts for at the most 2 hours, then I am in pain again. I can't really describe what it does, but at the end I get tired. It seems alot of things make me tired now though- even caffeine does!

You are so right about how pills get in the street! There are alot of older people who are prescribed medications for chronic pain, but weigh their pain over need for money, and the need for $ always outweighs. I can't tell you how many times I have had friends live with me for awhile and my meds would come up missing- one time a bottle of 60! Even family has been at my house and I've had them missing- I try to go to extra measures to make sure they are up, like spliting my whole script into different old bottles around the house,and locking them up when ANYONE is at my house. I hate having to do this with even my family- but when you get alot I guess some people think 5-10 extra pills won't be missed.

Sorry this is so long- it just feels like you were talking about me!!

I'm a social worker, not a medical professional. All comments and thoughts are simply my opinion and experience.

I've always been under the impression that suboxone is not to be used for pain management, but is instead used more for those who are just opiate dependent. 

I'm a social worker, not a medical professional. All comments and thoughts are simply my opinion and experience.

Suboxone is a CIII which means that under federal law you can write for up to 5 refills in a 6 month period.  CII's can only be written for one month at a time with no refills permitted.  However, even with CII's you can write multiple separate scripts, date them the day of the office visit, and write on the script that it may not be filled until such and such a date.   I think this bypasses the intent of the law so I do not do it.  Scripts are also easy to loose.  I think a script with refills that was in the hands of the pharmacist would be more secure, than a patient having say three written scripts for three months.  Even if the pharmacy looses the record of refills being allowed, they can confirm whether or not they dispensed a medication.   State laws vary and may be stricter than federal regulations. 

I think the big advantage of Suboxone is in people with a history of addictive behavior.  If you don't have the euphoric psychologic reaction to narcotics you are much less likely to become addicted to regular agonist only narcotics.  Regular narcotic agonists are often less expensive and have more flexible dosing options, so I don't think Suboxone will ever take over the market. 

I think you're right!  Not just pain relief which in itself makes you feel better, but a separate sense of euphoria, well-being,  energy, optimism, confidence...who wouldn't become addicted to feeling that way.  Maybe people who have the tendancy to addiction don't have normal levels of well-being, so narcotics just brings them up to average.  In that case you are treating a clinical syndrome (hypothymia) and except for needing more and more of the drug to get the same effect, narcotics are an effective treatment. 

Suboxone on the other hand, prevents misuse of agonist only narcotics because it blocks the euphoric effect.   It also has a rapid effect on improving depression symptoms, so it may help improve the addiction prone person's sense of well-being without tachyphalaxis or tolerance.  Some people on this site who have taken suboxone praise it for making them feel more clear headed and alert than when they are on narcotics. 

I am a long term opiate user (320 mg oxy's a day for over a year), plus lots of others previously, having switched to Subutex in Sept. '06. I have been watching different posts over the months, but this is my first communication.  The reason I decided to jump in just now, was that I saw the subject of "Bupe" as a prescribed pain control, and that triggered a question that I have not seen covered very much.

I believe that I have read that Bupe is available as pain meds, i.e. Temgesic, and not just for treatment of withdrawal; and also at high doses as a pain med in surgery.  This might explain why I am now feeling pain that has been masked thru my taper. My lingering question somewhat relates to this, as I recall an addictions Dr.'s comment to me when I met with him while considering getting away from the oxy. I believe he told me that " I can start you on Sub. right away, but you can never take opiates again" My response : "never?", his response:"NEVER".

I left wishing I had asked him why, but figured he must have meant that I would be instantly back where I was, or could he have meant that the opiates wouldn't work any more? I later came across a post from a Dr. with Reckitt Benckiser describing the "general principles" of pain management in the buprenorphine maintenanced patient. In this, there is one option presented, which is to " increase the buprenorphine to obtain an anelgesic effect".

I have over the past nine months read various posts, but havn't seen much concern about what happens if you end up in the E.R. with a partial agonist in your system (blocking the effect of other opioids.) I have been in the E.R. twice for migraines, and they were able to control the pain with Toridol and Compazine. I still wonder what experience other Bupe patients have had with acute pain management. 

As an aside, I will mention that I am now on .05mg Subutex per day, having extreme fatigue, and motivation problems. I've read some very helpful posts on other sites regarding the end of Subs, and the associated difficulties. Would like to know more also. Please ask and I'll share what I know.  Reference this please: I don't know where this will end, but for all of the challenges, I am satisfied that "Bupe" is a gift we are still learning about, and  I would clearly recommend it. I know, I'm not off it yet, so I'd be more credible if I were a couple of months clean.

I also agree with what you say but there is a twist to my feeling. I do get the "euphoric" feelings from the medication in tablet form so I am very strict with my medications and know that they are meant for one reason only! They are not meant to enjoy like going to a ball game or playing the drums, they are to allow me the pleasure of having my life back vs. being in bed and worthless to society and my family. 

I am a firm believer in the fentanyl transdermal patch with a conservative amount of break through medication and in fact today I spoke to my pain doc and lowered my BT meds to hydro from oxycodone to lower tolerance because I am similar to your patient that is worried that moving to the 100mcg/hr patch is like taking a the final step in the pain coffin for me. I don't want to do it. He kind of looked at me like I had 10 heads when I was explaining to him that I am really concerned that there are no 35mg roxicodone tablets and there are no 125mcg/hr patches and so I really don't like the position I am in. I don't want any more BT meds than what I have and going from the 75 to the 100 is really not appealing so going down seemed like a good idea to me and he agreed and said that not too many grasp the idea of tollerence vs. pain and since all of my radiology has come back the same, it only makes sense in my mind that I cannot be in "more" pain, at least I wouldn't think so. So it only makes sense to me that I am getting more and more tollerent.

If the pain persists after a couple of months and it is not manageable with what we are doing, than we will go back to oxycodone but I am also toying seriously with the idea of suboxone/subutex of pain managment but I haven't gotten the courage to approach the doc about it. I guess it is the stigma surrounding the medication, because it is used so much in the treatment of addiction that explaining my reasons may not be sufficient although we have a fantastic relationship and I always have my meds availible for inspection. (They don't do that here but I have read it is done in some places so I am ready just in case it happens one time or another here)

I hope this helps, I really just want to get the point across that after reading the amount of problems that folks have with these meds, over on other forums. That I am really afraid of addiction so I am almost crazy about how I take my meds and how I think in terms of them. In my opinion, as far as I go since addiction has ruined so many of the lives of people in my family I have to really keep total track of everything and in 4+ years I have learned how to do just.

OK look, I was a heroin/oxycontin addict for almost 6 years. Ive been able to quit and stay off the powerful opiates. However I've had this help with Suboxone. I've been taking 8mg sublingualy every day for the last 6 months+. During so I have stopped taking my Suboxone to see if there would be any persistent withdrawals or any opiate cravings. And let me tell you there are. I have almost just as bad of withdrawals when I'd stop taking my suboxone then when I would withdraw from Heroin or OxyContin. Now I'm wishing I never took suboxone for longer than the normal Opiate withdrawal period. But the fact is that the Dr.s want to keep the patients on Suboxone for between 3 months and 1 year. If I could go back in time I would, and I would only use the Suboxone during the rough 10 day or less withdrawal period.

By all means im not saying suboxone is all that bad for one person, but from an experienced addict this medicine does create cravings and realy never removes your opiate urges, since your always taking one.

Note Buprenorphine is an opiate agonist, and Naloxene is an opiate antagonist, so even though there is a celing effect that makes you not get "High" so to speak, but it will still cause one to crave the need for opiates with continued use. Choose your own PATH. PEACE

RxHistory: Whats Up, don't take any sarcasm seriously please.

Sorry for the length!!!

The answers to the majority of your questions about emergency pain care and post-surgical pain therapy can be found at. www.naabt.org in the physicians tab and scroll down to the pcss section and download the treatment documents and keep them in your car glovebox or somewhere that they wont be destroyed so that if you are not knocked out you can tell the ambulence driver to bring them for the doctors at the hospital. 

Also keep in your wallet at all times a list of all procedures, medications and doctors with phone numbers so that if you are in a bad wreck you will be cared for in the best possible manner. Since having this dumb artificial disc put in my back I a terrified of having a wreck because of the amount of catastrophic failures in them. (We did not hear about them until after my procedure) I was the 2nd in Tampa to get the Charite III ARD.

Anyway,  according to the naabt website every one of your concerns are addressed appropriatly and the majority of the answers are yes you can be managed for pain but the burden is on you to provide the info to the treating doctors and keep your cool when they start to suspect you because that is what will happen at first but just be patient and be armed with info. You having the documentation in order so that the ER doc doesnt thrown you into full blown withdraw and when they are taking their time figuring out what you have just handed them you will have to be patient and not be screaming so they dont flag you as a "seeker" as dumb as it may sound with your femur sticking out of your skin it would probably happen if your a bupe patient and the ER doc is a 1st or 2nd year resident. 

I think it is worthwhile to ask your doctor if they would be willing to try you on suboxone or subutex.  As discussed extensively on this site in other threads, it is used outside the US for pain management, and is used here in the US off-label for pain management. 

Interestingly, I went to one of my old books from medical school, (published by the American Medical Association 20 years ago) and saw Buprenorphine listed as a medication for pain control! I thought it was a new drug since I had never used it or even heard of it before.  The book mentioned that Buprnorphine may be useful for patients withdrawing from agonist only narcotics because of its prolonged binding with the receptors that cause opiate withdrawl, so you only have to take it once a day for withdrawl and maintenance, and lack of a strong euphoric effect.

Not that I am THAT old, but age does give you a different perspective.   

Dr. Lois,

I have been trying to figure out the answer to this question since I was a young child. I have been told I have ADHD. I remember when I was 14 and first used booze to self medicate. I felt like my thoughts slowed down and that the racing in my mind seemed to stop and for the first time allow me to feel what I thought was what " normal " people must think like! Of course the shortfalls of using alcohol as medicine came the next day at football practice!

My biological father had 6 children by at least 5 wives. We were all raised in seperate housholds for the most part. All of us were either active or recovering addicts/ alcholics! All were either ADD ADHD or if not diagnosed had the symptoms!

I do not have the articles at hand, but some interesting work has been published that seems to have found a gene that relates to addiction, alcholism, ADD/ADHD, over eating, compulsive gambling and a diminished reward cascade system!

I have been active in NA and AA. I found that like myself, the majority of addict had these two things in common. Both a history of childhood abuse ( sexual or otherwise ), as well as almost universally all of the symptoms that are used at present to discribe ADD/ADHD! They all self-medicated starting at an early age! 

It is my humble opinion that a very large % of folks in the prision systom are in the same boat so to speak. If we as a country could give out some understanding and compassion instead of a rush to revenge, we might show some progress on this " War on Some Drugs"! What will the people in the future think if this does turn out to be a genetic thing?

Dr. you have shown a light and an understanding that shines forth with compassion that is so rare these days in all professions. I for one say, keep up the fight!

Thanks you all for your indulgence.

Best regards,

Jerry   

Link #1

Link #2 

Its seems like the Transdermal System is going to be the prefered delivery of Buprenorphine for pain patients.

I think your addiction doctor was concerned with you developing addiction problems if you ever went back on narcotics, especially long term .  Once you are off suboxone, you would not have any bad physical effects from narcotic pain meds, and they would be as effective as if you had never taken suboxone. 

Apparently buprenorhine is used extensively in Europe and Australia for chronic pain.  I can't say how effective it is for pain control since I have almost no experience using it for pain.  The one patient I tried on  suboxone for pain went back to 100mcg/hour Fentanyl patch because he did not get adequate relief from 32mg/day of suboxone in divided doses.  He also had addiction problems, so I don't know how much was inadequate pain control and how much of it was something else.  Fentanyl TD at 100 mcg/hour is a pretty hefty dosage. 

Taking an agonist only narcotic on Suboxone won't hurt you, but you won't get much if any effect from it.  You can recieve Buprenorphine IV.  In an emergency, I would probably use IV Buprenorphine in a patient currently on suboxone.  I believe it can be used IV for induction of balanced anesthesia as well.

It is also my understanding that for withdrawl prevention once a day dosing is adeqate, but for pain it should be dosed more frequently, every 6-8 hours.  A continuous release patch, when and if it becomes available in the US would minimize any euphoria from the buprenorphine itself.