February 25, 2008 - 4:28pm
I was taking generic Norco and other types of hydrocodone that I was prescribed for lower back pain... I also got so much of this before my wisdom teeth were taken out...I basically started stock-piling them since 2006, receiving prescriptions, but going weeks without taking any, and before I knew it I had all these pills laying in every drawer and room of my apartment... well back in summer of 2007, I started taking them regularly..daily... big mistake... so I was up to about 17.5 mg a day... to make a long story short, I recently realized where this was heading, so i stopped taking them... to no surprise, in about 2 days I was having symptoms of withdrawel, so I would take them, but I would take less (12.5 mg) and then go a day without, then take 10mg the next day, go a day without, take 7.5 the next day.... and within about a week I could take 2.5 mg and feel the exact same relief as when I was taking 17.5 mg, where as before, 15mg wouldn't begin to cut it... is this a normal reduction of tolerance or what? Seems too easy for what I have read about other people's experiences... so now I have been taking 2.5-3.75 mg and that even comes on too "strong" for my liking now... I also have noticed that I am not nearly as nervy during the day or night anymore, where as I used to be when on so much of that... is there a link to narcotics and nerve issues... or am I just delusional?
February 25, 2008 - 6:43pm
#2
My experience at 80+mg
I currently take 80 to 120 mg of hydro a day. I use Norco and Lortab. Some days I don't need this much for my pain relief but I have to take it anyway or I get sick with diarrhea, nausea, muscle cramps/soreness and involentary shaking and shivers like I am cold and can actually feel my bones like something is eating me from the inside. If I don't take at least a 20mg dose every 4 hrs these symptoms start to set in. If I sleep to late I wake up with these symptoms already kicking in and have to dose up in order to get out of bed. IT x*#&s! I am going for MRI's soon and I hope to have a solution to my pain figured out in a month or less. I am going to kick these pills and plan to use a detox program and take some time off to do it. I am really wigged out about the dependency that I have developed. It does not seem fair that this has happened to me but I will deal with and defeat it when the time comes.
February 26, 2008 - 9:23am
#3
I do feel sympathy for
I do feel sympathy for anyone who has to go through withdrawal... It must be awful to have to take meds just to keep major symptoms away... Mostly reading online (this site in particular) about people's experiences with this has turned me off from taking narcotics habitually... I am lucky enough to not be in the situation where I absolutely have to take them (I think I was just getting used to taking them, borderline abusing them, but not sure what the fine line between abuse and what I was doing is)
It must be awful to have to be so dependent..not only on a drug, but on others to prescribe them, dispense them, and regulate them... All these people hold those who are dependent's state of functioning in their hands... and last time I checked, most people are not all about caring about other people ... that's why I do not want to become dependent on these meds... even if they are the only thing that really helps my pain, I do not want Doctors, Pharms, and the DEA regulating my mental state... I've seen too many cases where a "good" doctor would retire, and the patient who was prescribed high dosages of narcs. regularly would have to seek other doctors, only to be turned down and treated like a drug-seeker (which in reality, they are seeking a drug... one someone got them dependant on..usually a doctor.) I've also known cases where pharmacists would interfere... and even a case a friend of mine went through... he moved out of state and was still having norco called in for him from his old doctor of like 4 years for a year after he moved... every month on cue... then one day, he just called like he always had, and was told that the office had been contacted (I'm assuming by some form of the DEA ???) and told that the visits and call ins did not match and that the doc could no longer do it... bam! cut off! no warning... so in the mean time of finding a new doc.... withdrawals ~ on top of pain ~ on top of feeling helpless (which he was)... that's really messed up and i can't believe how callus and unconcerned people can be... His doc should have contacted him immediately after finding out and told him of the situation so that he could find alternative methods, or at least wean himself off... but instead, she was too caught up in saving her own ^*#% and being oh-so-busy like some docs will martyr themselves by. See, it just makes me angry thinking of it...
So good luck to anyone suffering through the thought of dependance, b/c I can understand how hard that could be... that's the last place I'd wanna be, hence my tapering down.
February 26, 2008 - 10:29am
#4
No way
Asheville-
That's terrible. I, for the life of me, cannot understand why people have to interfere with other people's buisness. I fully understand that there are people who abuse these drugs for kicks, but there are many of us who have to take these pills for pain.
Here's an example- it's pouring rain outside as I'm typing this and when I got up this morning I was in so much pain it's almost laughable. People don't understand that when it rains- I hurt and have to take painkillers to feel "normal".
Stories, like the one you told, tick me off so much. It's totally unfair to those to be "demonized" because some people choose to abuse these. Kids are taking cold medicine in record numbers so are we to assume that the guy buying cold meds is doing so to get off?
As far as Hydro withdrawl goes- I know all about that. I was taking 60-80mg daily and my Dr. (God bless him) and I talked about it and he switched me to Percocet. A world of difference. I take 3 pills compared to 6-7 and I feel like I have more energy than before. I don't feel so bogged down and weired out.
February 27, 2008 - 10:08pm
#5
congrats
congrats on fixing your prob. before it began.. ive been on hydro then on suboxone and now back on hydro "weening down" HAHA!! i was allergic to the naloxone or what ever in the sub now i got a jar or hydro to ween off of.. i need major help but my doc dont seem to care, i get violently sick with in 24 hrs. of no hydro my legs and back cramp so bad i think im dying all i can do is throw my self in odd positions and hope i get a few mins. of sleep between the bouts of diareah.. with the chills i cant tell if im hot or cold and am a misserable wreck. i was taking 7-8 10mg norcos a day down to 4-5mgs. a day now to 'ween' as all may know that four aday is a goal right now not an active practice. i never thought id be like this, and im sure you never would about your self. so stop now and save some face.
February 27, 2008 - 10:54pm
#6
be careful Boom
I have terrible chronic pain in my right foot and have had so since June of 2006. I started on Lortab 7.5, they didnt help, then Lortab 10, 6 times a day, and that made me sick to my stomach. So my Doctor prescribed me Percocet 7.5, 4-6 times daily... After a while of taking them and sometimes running out a day or 2 early (as some days are better than others), I would have horrible withdrawals, WAY WAY WAY worse than with the Lortab I am currently taking...The bottom line is, you will build a tolerance, its inevitable, so try and go about 3 days every so often to keep yourself in check.. As for Doctors and others micromanaging people? My doctor has run more pharmacy boards on me than Carters got pills.. Every one of them was "Negative for abuse" as I knew, I dont abuse my pain medicine,,and finally, I was recently discharged from his care because of a spat I had with his billing clerk.(She embarrased me in a room full of patients hounding me about my bill) Finally, I called her a "B^&ch" (she did earn every letter of it I might add) Telling me I better produce a credit card if I "intended" to see my doctor. My thought is this, our doctors today dont even run their own practices. It is run by some bean counter and agencies like the DEA (with their audits)... I feel for your friend, whoever posted that story about their friend being just cut off..It happened to me too, but for other reasons, but the end result is the same...
February 28, 2008 - 12:26am
#7
Can't Sleep
Well, I can't seem to fall asleep so I just ate two Soma. I am weening down myself. I counted yesterday and I think I ate fourteen 10mg hydros. Today I only ate ten. Tommorrow I am going for eight. It will get hard at that point and will take longer to ween down from there. I am shooting for four a day and hoping that when I get there I can actually go for a few days without taking any. I am glad that I live in Houston and have a good paying job. I know of at least four clinics that I can go get pills from in less than three hours so I will not get cut off unless I do it myself. I have been buying one hundred twenty pills every friday for about three months now and last night I decided that I was going to get into real trouble if I did not get a grip on myself. This round only started in July of 2007 so it has escalated very fast and it is kind of scary to look at what could happen to me if I fail to control this thing. I have used hydro on and off for years but have never been dependent until this injury happened. I have always been able to just put them down, mainly because I never used the tens before and never used for more than about six weeks at a time. I am 43 and have a wife and three kids to think about as well. Reading this forum and others like it has been a real Godsend. It has given me an awareness that I should have had anyway.
March 2, 2008 - 10:56pm
#8
Dependancy is not a terrible
Dependancy is not a terrible problem to deal with. Addiction is. Anyone who takes high doses of narcotics for a certain length of time will develop dependancy. People who are physically, geneticly, emotionally, and socially vulnerable will develop addiction, which is much harder to treat.
March 2, 2008 - 11:09pm
#9
Of course I really get tired
Of course I really get tired sometimes of these criticize the doctor posts. Most doctors would consider it irresponsible to call in a prescrition for potent narcotics to a patient for a year without seeing them. I my state it is illegal to refil a prescription, except on an emergency basis, unless you have seen the patient within the year. Why didn't your friend get a new doctor in their new state? Doctors are put in the difficult position of responsibly diagnosing and treating legitimate pain problems while monitoring the patient for compliance and mininizing the risk of diversion and addiction. If they don't do this to everyone's satisfaction, they are sued for malpractice, procecuted for breaking federal drug laws, undergo investigation by the board of medicine, loose their license and their livelihoods! Sometimes it just is not worth the risk.
March 2, 2008 - 11:15pm
#10
If you are really allergic
If you are really allergic to naloxone (how do you know?) why not try subutex. Your doctor may make you come in every day to pick up your daily dose, but it is better than withdrawal. Of course you get violently ill after 24 hours off narcotics, that what withdrawal is. You can avoid such severe withdrawal symptoms by weaning more slowly. I ususally recommend 2-4 weeks depending on the starting dosage. You may still not feel "good" or "normal" for months after you finally stop the narcotic.
March 3, 2008 - 5:02pm
#11
That's all fine and dandy,
That's all fine and dandy, but my point was - why wouldn't the doctor have said something months ago or at least when she found out she couldn't prescribe anymore instead of going a year and then just saying "no more." It's not really relevant why my friend didn't try and find a new doc... maybe he thought he had a good thing going and didn't need to; after all, it was every month for a YEAR that she did this for him consistently... What risk are you talking about? I don't blame her for not continuing to prescribe this to him after she was contacted, but she shouldn't have done it the whole time if it was indeed illegal... so this is not a poor-doctor scenario, by all means, and I wasn't really blaming the doctor in this case either... my point to this whole thing was that I don't want to become dependant to a drug that is becoming so taboo in this country that all of these people (docs included) have to protect themselves by essentially hurting others
March 9, 2008 - 5:43am
#12
HELLO
Does anyone realize the amount of APAP they are getting with these 14 and 15, or more, hydrocodne a day. As far as i know hydrocodone does not come in a formulation without another drug.....either ibuprofen or APAP......4g/day max on apap or u won't have to worry about the pain, because you'll be dead from liver failure....just a thought
Ray
March 9, 2008 - 9:12pm
#13
High Qty of APAP
Hello Slitter028, I have thought alot about the level of APAP I am taking in. It seems that people are all different as far as what they can absorb and process. My liver function was still normal last check and I must say I was surprised. I have heard of people using up to 30 pills a day and wondered why they were not DOA from the APAP. It is a scary thought and also very confusing. It must have something to do with your metabolism. I really use up to 14 pills some days. I start in the morning with Lortab and if I realize it's going to be a bad day I switch to Norco. I also use Soma, Celebrex or 800mg Ibuprofen and three blood pressure meds. So I don't know why my liver is not showing signs of damage but it's not. Some days I have taken in as much as 7g of APAP in 12 hrs and had no ill effects from doing so. Beats me but it's true. I know a guy who took 25 Lorcet 10/650 in one day and had no problem from the APAP. Figure that one out, He should have been DOA....
March 10, 2008 - 3:52am
#14
Odd.....
When i started on opiate combos years ago, they harped on me about the amount of APAP in them and in conjunction with all the other meds you and I both are taking (I'm currently on 18), including the ARV's....I have to have liver function tests done every month because of those and i've had no appreciable effects from the meds ...APAP or otherwise, thank god....that's all i need now is to be on the liver transplant list......Just Please be careful taking that much APAP...
Ray
March 10, 2008 - 5:32am
#15
hydrocodone
I consider hydrocodone to be a very weak narcotic analgesic, so I am surprised that you even got any sort of withdrawal from such a low dose. To have any effect whatsoever on my breakthrough pain (I have an arthritic condition) my dose of hydrocodone would be 40-50mg. I would worry myself far more about the amount of liver-destroyer they are compounded with than the hydrocodone. Manufacturer has a lot to do with it too; the strongest I have ever had is the Mallinckrodt M367 10mg/325mg. That company definitely makes the best hydrocodone you can get in the USA. If only I lived in Germany, where they make hydrocodone tablets, NO PARACETAMOL. But the highest strength is 5mg, which means I would have to take 8 tabs to get a decent pain relief. It isn't a strong drug at all.
Gaucho
"NEVER ingest anything unless you are 100% sure what it is."
March 10, 2008 - 6:02am
#16
All a matter of Tolerance
I would def. not consider hydrocodone a "weak" painkiller by any stretch of the imagination. It's all a matter of the tolerance you're built up to opiates. For people like us...i'm currently at 25-30 mg/day as lortab....at that doseage I can function w/o pain, diarreaha. At that doseage opiate naive patients would be floored...Also, a note on the different generics available. I have had name brand and generics (if available) of every medication i have ever taken...and that's alot of meds, believe me....but i have never noticed a difference in any of them...AT ALL....again I think that's one of those psychological things, because all generics, by law must contain the same active ingredient at the same doseage, with the same rate of absorbtion, as the brand name version. They are allowed, obviously, to add other misc. colors, binders...as they wish, but essentially it's the exact same medication as the brand name
Ray
March 10, 2008 - 9:01pm
#17
You do have a point there,
You do have a point there, the patient should have been contacted, however have you ever considered that seeing as the patient had not been in the office in so long, the physician may not have reviewed the file to know what was even going on. In the US a doctors representative can call in refills, that means basically anyone in the office can do it. Its highly possible the office kept allowing the refills and not exactly consulting the physician...It happens...Under no circumstances should a narcotic medication be called in for that long with no physical examination. Hydrocodone is a poor pain medication for the management of long term pain, it is indicated for acute pain management. A condition for which adequate and ongoing pain relief is indicated would call for a more applicable drug with a long acting pharmacodynamic.
March 10, 2008 - 9:46pm
#18
allergic to naloxone.
if youd like to know the exact allergic symptoms message me, they are not something id like to share with everyone. daily visits to the doctors office would be do-able, but he's clear across town and I clock in at work well before he opens. why he chose the ween over the subtex im not sure, mabey for that reason. weve discussed the "feeling normal " will come with time. but this is something ive gotta do for my self and family. this is a challenge one of the greatest ive ever gone throogh.
March 10, 2008 - 9:55pm
#19
physiology
everybodies reacts differently to narcotic meds. alot of people on this site take alot more than just lortab, lortab was there breeding ground for stronger meds. others dont need anything more than lortab and their body needs it like others need oxy, withdrawl is enevitable for all who take narcotic meds. lortab is not a weak painkiller to those that it works great for. a low dose over a long period of time is still enough to make someone physicaly dependant.
March 10, 2008 - 11:35pm
#20
N.A.C or N-AcetylCysteine
I have mentioned this before and felt that due to the nature of the thread it was a good idea to mention it once again.
There is an amino acid available that is called N.A.C or N-AcetylCysteine which helps to protect the liver from Acetaminophen (Tylenol) and other various toxins. One of the ways it does this is through the production of Glutathione. Glutathione is an antioxidant and eliminates toxins and free radicals in the body. It also bolsters the immune system It is of course much more complicated than that but I just wanted to give everyone a quick run down.
N.A.C can be purchased with or without added Glutathione at any drug or health food store. It is recommended for anyone currently taking high amounts of Acetaminophen. This Amino acid is also used as an antidote whenever Acetaminophen poisoning or overdose is suspected.
March 11, 2008 - 2:07am
#21
Bad2WD-No offense, but your
Bad2WD-
No offense, but your mentality towards your apap intake sounds like that of a drunk driver! "My liver function was still normal last check and I must say I was surprised....So I don't know why my liver is not showing signs of damage but it's not. Some days I have taken in as much as 7g of APAP in 12 hrs and had no ill effects from doing so."
You know you are taking excessive amounts of tylenol that could potentially cause you liver damage or failure, yet you almost seem to be bragging about it like it is a proud accomplishment. Just the same as a drunk driver gets behind the wheel, each time knowing that that could be the time he hits and kills someone, but keeps doing it anyway saying last time nothing happened; this sounds the same as your actions. You take too many pills knowing you shouldn't (just like getting behind the wheel), while each time you know that that could be the time your liver can't stand up to all the tylenol (just as the drunk driver's mentality), but you keep doing it anyway saying your liver has not had any ill effects yet from doing it so you should be okay.
The problem is that by the time your liver can't hold up to the pressure, it will be too late. It will be too late for second chances, and too late for those liver tests to be surprised about. Once the excessive tylenol takes effect, its not just going to show up in your liver test once that you could have a problem that you can fix, but instead it will either show damage that you cannot fix, or your liver will just completely fail on you past any chance for recovery.
That one night of a buzz, relief, or high is not enough to ruin your liver or your chances of health for the rest of your life. You keep referring to the fact that someone should be "DOA" for taking excessively large amounts of tylenol, but that is not always the reality of it. Large dose of apap do not always, or often, result in someone dying (is this what you are waiting for?), instead it usually poisons someone's liver so much that they go into liver failure and are lucky to be on meds for life, if not put on the liver transplant list.
I don't mean to say all this to scare you, but you need to start realizing what you are doing to yourself. This is the kind of stuff you need to think about when you take those extra pills and take that much tylenol.
Please, for the sake of your health, your liver, your life, and your family, make smarter choices when you take pills. I'm not going to harp not to take them, but if you take them, do it wisely.
I'm a social worker, not a medical professional. All comments and thoughts are simply my opinion and experience.
March 11, 2008 - 5:48am
#22
APAP
Yes, by the time that your liver is damaged from to much APAP, it is too late. The damage is already done was how it was explained to me by the doc. The max for APAP is 4g/day and that is the extreme high end of the dosing scale, and even that amount for long enough will do some liver damage if take it long enough, and in conjunction with other drugs you're killing your liver, and from what i hear new ones these days are sky high 
...just a thought
Ray
March 11, 2008 - 9:16am
#23
Very Concerned
Hello js57gifts,
No offense taken. I really appreciate the concern and the information. I am, as stated in a previous post in this thread, weening myself off of / down from the qty of pills I have been using. I would like to quit taking them altogether however I have not discovered what is causing my back pain and muscle spasms yet. I was using just Lortab but when I snapped to the qty of pills I was taking I also started using Norco. I live in an area where anyone can pretty much just go buy any CIII narcotic they want at numerous locations. Anyway, I am in no way trying to brag or seem like I have a death wish. I know a mother of three I went to school with who recently died at 42 from taking to many pills. I do however find it amazing that some people seem to be able to tolerate high doses of APAP and some can't. The guy I know who took 25 Lorcet has been taking pills for 18 years due to cronic back pain. This forum has opened my eyes and given me an awareness that for whatever reason I did not have before. So, I thank you guys for scolding me. I don't take this lightly and am in the process of reversing the trend.
March 11, 2008 - 9:21am
#24
Good for You
Im surprised your friend has a liver left to speak of...Anyway, good luck in your effort to quit....If you need someone to talk to PM me..
I'm not a doctor, but would LOVE to play one on tv....
Ray
I wouldnt even begin to consider it a serious problem until someone is up to atleast 50mg a day. There are peolpe who supposedly take 20+ Vicodin ES a day. Its when you get up into these numbers where you start to see really bad withdrawal effects. At 17.5mg a day, you probably didnt have that intense of withdrawal effects either. Probably only mild chills, yawning and aggitation. Its when you are on higher doses for long periods of time when you get diarrhea, nausea, leg/back cramps/pain, insomnia plus the other syptoms above.
I am however happy for you that you realised you where heading in the wrong direction and took care of this "demon" before it got any worse.