MD Nationality vs. Opinion on Narcs

MedRecDir's picture
Posts: 2
Joined: 2008-04-16

I work for a large family practice in Western North Carolina which is owned and operated by white men. We have 2 female PA-Cs on staff as well. I suppose I should say I too am a white male. After moving to this area I noticed how hard it is for patients here to receive narcotic pain relievers without bearing the embarrassing ordeal of signing a pain management agreement and being treated like a child whom was just handed $100 that doesn't have any financial skills. In short, these patients are treated as if they're only there to get high. Furthermore, we have drug reps coming in daily providing lunches (which usually cost over $500 per day but that's another topic) and convincing our MDs that their "non-narcotic" pain relivers are better than the traditional methods used. But why are they better? Simply because they don't offer the "high" that narcs do. Who is to decide if that is right or wrong!? Anyway, here's my question: Has anyone had better luck obtaining narcs and not being treated like a "seeker" from MDs of other nationalities such as Indian or African-American? Is there a cultural barrier that exists when it comes to society's view of narcotic pain relievers? Do white physicians have differing opinions on the matter than Black or Indian MDs? Would one have better luck obtaining these meds from an Indian or Black MD? I've worked for several MD offices in my life and of those the ones that were owned and operated by whites had very strict policy regarding prescribing narcotics and they often dismissed patients simply for this reason while the office I worked for which was owned and operated by a black MD had no problem prescribing these meds. Also, when it came to abuse, rather than dismiss the patient like I've seen the white MDs do, the black MD tapered her patients off of these meds.




Posts: 20
Joined: 2008-03-27
I live in the Central Valley

I live in the Central Valley in California. Some doctors are very cautious. I have been taking Opiate medication since I got in a bad car accident in 2004 and broke my femur. I have seen some chiropractor's and other pretty much tell me what doctors to go to to get drugs easily. This seams to be the pill shopping doctors everyone knows about. I actually hate the doctors because they are why other docs are scared to prescribe. I go to legit pain clinic where they have tried everything before resulting to narcotics and prescribe conservatively. I know that if they are giving this to me it must truly be the only way to treat my pain. This way I know I'm not taking drugs because I think that I need them (your brain can play tricks). The stigma of abuse , dependence and the like is very difficult issue for all chronic pain patients even those with terminal illness. My Doctor I feel is the right one for me. You must find one you have and develop a relationship with. You must trust your PM doc and he must trust you. I am happy enough I have a Doctor that is willing to prescribe a 26 year old oxycontin and perocets because he feels it best for me. I even told him I don't want oxycontin and he told me its the same as the percocet and if that works best why mess with it. He is very conservative but this is better than the nsaid treatment which tears my stomach apart. My primary care doctor would give me the percocet but nothing stronger. It is difficult as a doctor because drug seekers ruin it for all. I do feel that even with the risk my doctors one an Indian (was conservative) and a white guy (conservative) both have done right by me by not denying me medication. I did have a primary car doctor in Massachusetts (a white guy) who gave me what ever I wanted as far a medication if I told him I needed it because he trusted me. I feel that this all comes down to trust and if you are a different skin color it may be more difficult to gain trust with your doctor. But regardless over time trust should be built and if this relationship can't be achieved you have the wrong doctor. I had a Chinese PM doc and he was awful, he treated me like a drug addict(made me take a drug test..) I was mad and switch doctors. Plus I could understand him so I didn't trust him any more that's why I left him. This discussion could go on forever as this is a sensitive topic for me as I have been under stigma even from my family for taking the medication I need to live a normal life not with out pain but free enough to live life outside of bed.

(edited by admin)




slitter028's picture
Posts: 290
Joined: 2008-02-09
Interesting question

I have had a Pain management doctor from India for the last 3 or 4 years, I have never had a black doctor, not that it would matter, but, i've not noticed a difference in the prescribing practices for controlled substances from a doctor that was white or indian or russian...Sorry, I'm the most non-bigoted person there is on the face of the earth, but I WILL NOT go to a chinese doctor...He's the dude that messed me up with the lumbar puncture, then i went to another doc once, and she was chinese and refused me HIV meds of all things.....You not sink enough....no need pills....I felt like she didn't understand a word i was saying...and frankly didn't care, because after she refused me meds I got so mad, I told her exactly what I thought and promptly went to another HIV doc....That's just me personally, i have nothing against anyone reguardless or race, gender..blah, blah..

Ray

Remember: Just do it.. EVERY PILL  EVERY DAY




Posts: 98
Joined: 2007-12-16
Here in washington state I

Here in washington state I have had three main docs provide me medications for the last 8 years or so, I am now 18. One white, One Japanese and another chinese that being a female. I have not noticed a diff in each, they have all have been just great I would go as far as calling them family. They are all pedi's so that may have somthing to do with it. One thing I have noticed is that they have almost the same personality when it comes to offering meds and asking which direction I would like to go. I am sure it all just depend on their experiences with drug users.




Posts: 988
Joined: 2007-04-12
Interesting question.  I am

Interesting question.  I am sure there are some studies out there.  The other question I would ask is does being US trained, versus trained overseas make a difference.  Which patients are more likely to get narcotics black, white, male, female, old, young.  Regional variation Kentucky, Texas, New Hampshire, all of which seem to have radically different approaches to managing drug diversion.  I have a patient who is a med student who gets a script for a controlled substance and comes in about every six months.  Last week he came in looking like Eminem, with a very beautiful black woman on his arm.  My office manager commented, that he really isn't dressed to maximize his chance of getting a controlled substance!  Turns out she has a masters degree and is going to law school.  Prejudice still reins rampant.



strgazr's picture
Posts: 73
Joined: 2007-04-23
how do you size people up?

how do you size people up? the way they look? the way they speak? their age? their medical problems? i know it's probably a little bit of everything but i was just wondering what your thought process is when deciding to give someone narcotics. just out of curiousity how many people have you caught not being truthful with you?




solo5010's picture
Posts: 1178
Joined: 2005-10-06
 I have to give my vote to

 I have to give my vote to Indian doctors. I think they seem to have a more open opiate/opioid prescribing hand than any other nationality out there. The U.S. gets somewhere in the range of 80% of there raw opiate materials from India, my theory being that Indian doctors prescribe more opiates because it supplies there home country with money and jobs.



Posts: 988
Joined: 2007-04-12
I don't know if I should

I don't know if I should tell.    It might be an instruction book on how to get doctors to write you a script! 

The most difficult addicts to detect are the ones who have a legitimate problem, that is known to be painful.  It is only when you check the record of prescriptions they have had that you realize they have a bigger problem than pain.

The story a patient gives you has to be logical from a medical standpoint.  The patient has to be honest about their use of medication.  They have to follow up with recommendations for PT, imaging studies, and consultations. 



MedRecDir's picture
Posts: 2
Joined: 2008-04-16
So Good!

Brilliant response. Exactly what I was looking for. I agree that the origin of the MDs training would possibly determine the likelihood of said MD prescribing certain meds. In my experience here at my office I've noticed most of the MDs are from other parts of the country; however, the ones from the North (upstate NY and Vermont) are less likey to prescribe controlled substances and even look down on patients who have expressed interest in Rxs like Ultram which is a debateable opiate and the MDs from the South are more likely to atleast attempt to place a trust in their patient by allowing that pt to sign a pain mgmt agreement and receive narcs through proper adherence to said pain mgmt agreement. Secondly, does the nationality matter? Obviously it does and here's why: In my practice and like most others the nurse sees the pt first, writes up a H&P, talks to the MD or PA and bam the MD or PA are now seeing the pt. The Nurse has so much power in this situation when working with a MD who relies entirely on the nurse's impression of the patient. This is very unfortunate as this is something I see everyday I come to work with certain MDs. I understand that some MDs and their assts have long sometimes close relationships and there may be a high level of trust but it's sad that appearance alone can determine whether or not a patient receives meds that work for them. And I live in Western North Carolina! Come on, everybody is a hick. Well, maybe not but close. Anyway, thanks for the great reply.



Posts: 6
Joined: 2008-04-22
Females are stingy

I've used Fioricet (Butalbital compound; a barbiturate) for tension headaches for two decades. Occasionally I've had to go to a walk-in clinic to get a script when I'm between family practitioners. Men hand them out like candy; women have ALWAYS been either cautious or unwilling to prescribe. I can see not wanting to dole out 100 at a time, but why would they not prescribe 10 just to get someone through a nasty tension headache?




Posts: 253
Joined: 2008-03-26
in my experience..

i have seen so many docs in the past 3 years for my degenerative disc disease, a good # of them were ER docs or walk in clinic docs, only 2 of them were pcps that i saw on a regular basis.  they were both white males, but one was in Mass, and one was in Maine, which I was told a couple years ago is supposedly the most opiate addicted state in the US.  i dont know how truw that is, i think its a big prob everywhere.  anyways, the dr here in mass i had to see once a WEEK, to get 50 perc 5s.  then a year or so later when i was in maine, this doc gave me 180 perc 5s the FIRST time i saw him!  i continued to see him once a month, and he'd ask me how the meds were working, now i had been an addict for years prior to this so perc 5s didnt do anything.  so everytime id see him id say they arent working or they make me feel sick ..some story to get him to give me something new.  so i finally got him to rx me 120 roxi 15s a month which i stayed with and said they worked fine.  now keep in mind im about 6'2", 250, with tattoos all over me and ears and tongue pierced.  so i look like a stereotypical addict or whatever u wanna call it, but this guy saw thru that and actually listened to me about my pain, and did help me a lot.  As for the whole race thing, I think that comes into play , for me anyways, in the ERs.  Looking the way i do is not a good thing when im in pain and trying to get a rx from an er doc.  But im gonna agree with Solo5010 in that the indian drs were the most liberal when rxing narcs.   one indian dr i saw in a mass ER even rxed me perc 5s and he knew I was on the methadone clinic! but he knew i had messed up my neck pretty bad, so i guess he knew i needed the narcs.  but in other ERs with a variety of races of drs I would end up getting a script, but they were hesitant to give it up, i could tell easily, and that was after they DRILLED me for info and loaded me up with questions.  But i guarantee if i didnt look like i was in a metal band, it probably would have been no prob.  there were plenty of times i did not get an rx for narcs in an ER though, and those times it was every race of dr there is that denied me. so obviously it was more about how I looked then their race.  the nurse would come back 2 discharge me, and give me an rx for 10 ultram, and a blisterpak with one perc 5 in it.  Thats what i get for having ink and a couple earrings and being a big guy! So i guess my points are, that it depends not only on the drs race, but the patients appearance(which some of u have already mentioned), and also where in the country you are.  But the stereotype that goes with the whole thing is so stupid, but it will never end.   



Posts: 6
Joined: 2008-04-22
Mdonia

That's a great story. It's good to hear that there are responsible providers out there who will listen and trust. Good luck to you!



Goat's picture
Posts: 853
Joined: 2006-11-21
My current Dr.s are both

My current Dr.s are both from Bangledesh, A husband and wife team. he practices pain management, her- family practice. I have a 7+ inch goatee and religous tattoo's...I have schizophrenia and get disability. I also have arachnoiditis, degeneration..blah blah....I have been with him for 8 years now..he is one of the best drs around...people with mental illness sometimes can't really describe what ails them..but he follows.  His wife is iffy on things. When I started seeing her she had a problem with writing 4 mgs xanax a day...been on the same dose for 8 years...I was not seeing a psych dr at the time...she offered 3 mg a day...I told her I would see a psych..he is white and gave me what i asked for right off the bat no problems..forgot to add him uptop..rambling post..but i hope it helps.Undecided  

I am not a Dr. I just play one on TV.

 

 

 




Posts: 253
Joined: 2008-03-26
thanks

thanks jamies...  yea sometimes u are lucky and get a doc that does not judge by appearance, or just in general.  the dr was younger too, i think that helps.  he was probably in his mid to late 30s.  but most of our appointments lasted sometimes for almost an hour!!  just because he was listening to me talk and not interrupting me , which really ticks me off, and answering all my questions thouroghly.  I was still planning to see him when we moved back to mass (we were in maine) and i did a couple times, then one day i showed up for an appt, and they told me he had quit coz he got another job, and i had received NO notice about this at all.  so i drove the 2 hours up there for nothing, and i needed a refill on my roxis.  I was ready to flip out!  See thats because of his office staff who all had something against me or the way i looked and the fact that he was rxing me narcs.  They always pulled stuff like that, like not calling me if he had to reschedule, but this took the cake, driving for 2 hours only to find out  he was gone.  I didnt even get a chance to thank him for his help or anything.  as for the meds i told them i was not leaving without a refill on my roxis.  so finally after having me wait for almost an hour, another doc came out to get me and pulled me in a little hallway, and told me hed refill them this time but now i had to find a new doc. gee thanks buddy thanks for telling me!  But the point is again even if the doc has no prob with you and gives you narcs for chronic pain, and you feel comfortable with him or her and feel like u arent being judged as a drug seeker, once u walk out of the room u were in with the dr, his or her nurses and office staff most likely will judge you esp. if you have ink or piercings or are a different race, whatever it is, when it comes to these drugs even if u are getting them legally, someone is always gonna think u are an addict or a junkie, especially if you look different.  it may not be all of them but i can guarantee there will ALWAYS be atleast one.



Posts: 6
Joined: 2008-04-22
mdonia

Let me assure you, though, that in many areas it's the middle-class, or upper-middle-class, females that are stereotyped as drug-seekers.

 

In any case, it ticks me off that you have to go through that just to get relief. I don't have chronic pain. If I did, I don't know WHAT I would do.




Posts: 253
Joined: 2008-03-26
really....?

hey jamie..is that right? i would have never thought that females would be in a class of their own as drug seekers.  i mean i know there are females that do it everywhere, i just didnt know that in certain parts that mid to upper class females were a big group of "seekers".  what areas are you talking about?  i mean it happens everywhere, every age, every sex, the person you would least expect will show up in an ER complaining of back pain hoping to get a script, with no evidence, like an mri, or records, and think they will get it.  they think drs are stupid.  but yea if u have chronic pain, no matter where u are, no matter what dr u go to, there will always be judgemental people out there that uhafta deal with.  at first it really bothered me, but now i try not to let it, im also not getting any rx's for opiates for my pain anymore, coz im on the 'done clinic.  but thats an even worse problem with judgemental people that run their little mouths off, with no knowledge or understanding of methadone and what it does for people.