July 23, 2006 - 1:59am
First of all let me say that I enjoy all the posts on this site and have learned a ton of info from it. I'm constantly using it as a quick reference for almost every pill I take. Thanks to all the posters. I started being prescribed Vicodin ES tablets a few years ago for a back injury. I almost always get the generic versions of this pill. As do some of my friends and co-workers. I'm sure most people are too just by what I have read and heard. It seems to be a popular one for doctors to throw out at patients when they don't want to send you to a chiropractor. Of course that's just my opinion. Anyway, I started getting a generic made by Qualitest with the imprint of a V on one side and the # 3596 on the other. It is scored as well. Of the people I know I'm the only one to get this companies version of the pill. Anyway, I recently switched pharmacy's and now am getting the Mallinckrodt companies version of this pill. It is marked M360 and scored on the oposite side. BTW, this is the one that all the people I know get. I'm assuming this is because they have some kind of deal with the major chain pharmacies like CVS & Walgreens. I'm noticing a big difference between the two pills even though they have the exact same ingredient's. In my opinion the Qualitest version seems to be more effective. I would like to know if anyone else on this board has had a similar experience and or knowledge of this difference. I've asked several pharmacist's and was told pretty much the same thing. They say that they mostly here this about other types of meds and not in pain meds. Most of the pharmacist's use Tylenol#3's as an example where they have never had a problem. When I say I'm talking About generic Vicodin ES they never have and answer. I understand there is a quality issue here meaning quality control may be different in each factory but all the people I know say its in my head and the FDA has these strict standards and the ingredient's have to be exactly the same. Of course this does not include whatever fillers they use. But I didn't think that made a difference. If anyone has had a similar experience or has any knowledge of why there is a big difference between these two companies please let me know. My friends think I'm crazy. I mean we're talking about generic medication. It would only be in my head if I had gotten non generic and then received the generic. There is such a big difference in the two companies that when I was prescibed a stronger dose of Vicodin meaning the Vicodin HP I noticed the Qualitest companys ES was still more effective. Please help on this one. Thanks in advance and thanks for letting me go on. But I need to know.
July 23, 2006 - 11:03pm
#2
FDA Orange Board
The FDA has something called an Orange Board, and it lists every medication and its bioequivalence, if you want a definition of the different meanings of Bioequivalence shoot me an IM, but basically AA means brand name...
Most generics are AB meaning they are within .005 of the bioequivalent level of active ingredient once they pass first pass metabolism. Take a look at the board, it also tells you when patents expire, and when new drugs are being approved, as well as generics...Here is the link
I never met a man, I could not learn anything from.
Galileo Galelei
July 23, 2006 - 11:16pm
#3
Thx
Very cool info, just wanted to personally thank you for the new resource and welcome you to this board. You seem very knowledgeble, and we need all the help we can get. :P
My comments are my opinions based on the questions posted on this message board and should be taken purely as is and not as medical gospal. Please consult medical concerns with medical proffesionals. Thank You!
July 24, 2006 - 4:47am
#4
You are welcome
I have worked in pharmacy for sometime now,and thought I might be of some help, but there are some stumpers on here, thats for sure. Glad I could help out.
July 24, 2006 - 5:13am
#5
The FDA does state thast the
The FDA does state thast the amount of ACTIVE ingredients has to be very close to the amount as the name brand.
But wait..... my understanding is that the INACTIVE ingreients(the fillers,binders,etc) can vary up to as much as 20%. What this may mean is that it's possible that these inactive ingredients may either allow absorption into your bloodstream either a little quicker or a little slower than the "brand" medications.
THis may or may not be true, as I have no hard facts nor research studies to back it up. ( Maybe the Pharm boys can get a grant to do a study, it'd be interesting to see).
July 26, 2006 - 12:27am
#6
RE: Vicodin ES Generics
I spoke with a pharmacist the other day at the local Walmart about the Mallinckrodt issue. Here's a big shock, that's all they carry as well. The bonus is that since Sam's Club is the Same company as Walmart that's all they carry as well. It seems this Mallinckrodt has this Vicodin generic business locked. Beware people. Thanks to all who replied.
July 29, 2006 - 12:44pm
#7
if you want to though, as i
if you want to though, as i have mentioned before, you can ask whatever pharmacy you go to order whatever kind of generic you request.
of course you might want to check w/ your insurance to see what kind they cover. but most insurances will pay for just about any generic b/c most of the prices are at least comprable.
when i had a problem w/ one of my rx's after it became generic and my insurance would only cover generic cost, i got my doctors office staff to call my insurance and tell them to "dispense as written" since i had a bad reaction to something in the generic. from my understanding this is not that uncommon. some generics seem to be as good if not better than the brand names while others dont seem to come close to the brand.
if you feel this is a serious issue then you should definitley discuss this w/ you medical care doctor.
July 30, 2006 - 11:22pm
#8
Thanks for the suggestion
I must thank you for the suggestion phisher. I had no idea that you could even suggest another generic. I thought once you got the non-name brand option there was only one choice. So I suggested it. And to my surprise I was told that there were others to chose from.
This helped a great deal. From now on not only am I going to suggest this one that works in particular, but I will for others that I don't feel are working to spec. as well. I'm glad I'm a part of this helpful forum and board. BTW, I've found as well that some generics are actually better than there name brand equivalents.
Thanks again.
August 3, 2006 - 11:40pm
#9
Generics seem different
Hi there,
I have been using prescription opiates for over 25 years. The last 15 I have used them probably 15 days out of 30, mainly Vicodin and Vicodin generics.
I used to request "Name Brand" until the insurance issue. I have never paid much attention nor noticed much difference in Watson, vs. Qual vs. Mallin. BUT, about 6 years ago I had the opportunity to have a Rx for Norco 10/325's. I thought, how wonderful, 10 mg of HC and only 325 of Aceta. I took my usual abusive dose of 150mg (that used to give me a great buzz) and waited for something even more pleasant.
NOTHING, NADA. Those little yellow pills were literally like taking, well..............like taking NOTHING! I couldn't believe it, but my partner agreed 100%. I had the same results the next 2 times I tried it. (all from the same script) Thinking perhaps, that something had slipped through QC at the manufacturer that one time, on 2 other seperate occasions the next 2 years I tried them again with exactly the same results. Of course, I checked the lot #'s and outdates, pictures of the pills, etc. Different lot #'s and ok outdates and pictures matched.
Needless to say I have never invested in Norco's again.
Now, I am a Laboratory Scientist and other than something counterfeit, I am at a complete loss.
BUT, if other people talk about this issue, I can relate and don't think they are nuts.
Take Care, Stay Safe, God Bless,
Karen M.
August 4, 2006 - 9:56pm
#10
Watson
All of the viewpoints on this particular forum are pretty interesting. I agree with most--there is a difference in generics v name brands, and generics v generics. Here's my view point though on generic preferences, as I have used several different strengths and brands of hydrocodone:
--5/500--I actually prefered Mall. I tried Qualitest and Watson brand 5's, but they didn't measure up to the Mall. brand--especially the Watsons.
--7.5/500--Again, I prefered Mall. The Watson's were not that bad, but it seemed to me that they were less effective. That, and I didn't care for the shape (fat, like a miniature jelly bean!
Now here's where the curve ball is:
--10/500--The blue Watson brand 10/500's, I think, are by far the most effective hydrocodone pill that I have ever taken. I prefer these over anything else; the Pink Qualitest, the white M363's, even the name brand Lortab's (which are outrageously expensive!)
--10/325--Back to the Mall. brand again-M367; the yellow Watsons are junk.
Call me crazy, and don't ask me why in my wierd little brain that I feel that much of a difference in all Watsons except for the blue 10/500's, but that's it folks. Just my opinion. Food for thought. Any agreements/arguments? Thanks.
August 18, 2006 - 12:38pm
#11
watson vs. mall
I AM REALLY EXPERIANCING A WEIRD THING, I HAVE TO TAKE NORCO 10/325 3 PER DAY.ORIGINALLY I GOT THE MALL. MADE ME ITCH LIKE CRAZY.DOCTOR MADE THE SWITCH TO THE REAL DEAL YELLOW NORCO'S NO ITCHING AT ALL BUT ALSO NO RELIEF FOR MY CERVICAL SPINAL STENOSIS.I DON'T KNOW WHAT THE DEAL IS? CAN ANY ONE HELP!!!I TOOK 2 AND IT WAS LIKE NOT TAKING ANYTHING.WAS ON ABBOTT VICODIN5/500-TRIED THE MALL AGAIN ITCH.BUT THE VICODIN WORKED.MY DOCTOR NEEDED TO SWITCH ME TO A LOWER DOSE OF THE TYLENOL IN PROTECTION OF MY LIVER BLOWING OUT ON ME. I APPRECIATE ANY SUGGEGTIONS -HAS THIS HAPPENED TO ANYONE ELSE?>THANKS
August 18, 2006 - 1:45pm
#12
i have heard of cases
i have heard of cases similar to yours.
in this type of situation the best thing that you can do is keep your doctor informed. it is always a good idea to keep a pain journal. you can find several of them throughout the intranet. keep track of when you pain gets worse and take notes throughout the day.
here is a link for a free pain note book
http://www.painfoundation.org/Publications/Notebook.pdf
it is in adobe format so you can just print it and start filling it out.
your problem could be resulting from a number of things, condition worsening, tolerance, ect ect. it is NOT impossible but i would speculate unlikely that it is actually a problem with the manufacture itself.
all thoughts and opinions expressed are those of my own and should not be mistaken for medical advice. i am not a doctor nor a pharmacist. all medical questions should be answered by a licensed pharmacist, doctor, or primary care manager.
August 18, 2006 - 4:02pm
#13
WATSON VS. MALL
PHISER- THANKS FOR THE SUGGESTION. I CALLED MY PHARMACY AND SPOKE TO A VERY HELPFUL LADY.THEY ARE GOING TO ORDER ME A DIFFERENT GENERIC SOURCE.I'LL RECIEVE ENOUGH OF THE MALL (in stock)FOR THE WEEKEND. MONDAY THE OTHER WILL COME IN.SHE TOLD ME TO TAKE BENEDRYL FOR THE ITCHING. SINCE I LAST WROTE OVER THE COURSE OF THE AFTERNOON THE WATSON IS GIVING ME MORE PROBLEMS.ie dry heaves etc. NOT A GOOD THING WITH CERVICAL MYELOPATHY.MY THROAT GOES INTO A MAJOR CHARLEY HORSE.I'LL LIVE WITH THE ITCH.THIS IS A GOOD INFORMATIVE WEB SITE & I DEEPLY APPRECIATE ALL YOUR SUGGESTIONS-THANK YOU !!!!
August 18, 2006 - 4:11pm
#14
glad we are able to
glad we are able to help.
usually the brand shouldn't make that much of a difference however sometimes the binders and fillers in certain brands can be enough to cause a reaction. it is unlikely but definitely not impossible. another possibility is that the dye used (that is, if it is a different color than white or the ones you have previously taken) can cause a reaction. these are all very small percentages but defiantly not out of the question.
i am very glad that your local pharmacy was willing to help you out.
in the interests of your health i would still run this by your doctor so that they can document it as possible allergies. i couldn't tell you the number of times i have seen people suffer from adverse reactions b/c either they weren't conscious or b/c they didnt tell someone they have had prior adverse or allergic reactions.
all thoughts and opinions expressed are those of my own and should not be mistaken for medical advice. i am not a doctor nor a pharmacist. all medical questions should be answered by a licensed pharmacist, doctor, or primary care manager.
August 18, 2006 - 8:14pm
#15
WATSON vs. MALL
GOOD EVENING TO ALL!! I AM GRATEFUL FOR THE HELP & CONTACTS.SOMETIMES YOU FEEL ALL ALONE ON THIS SUBJECT MATTER.MY DR.KNOWS THE SCOOP I SPOKE WITH HIS NURSE, THANKS AGAIN -IT WILL BE INTERESTING TO SEE WHAT OTHER GENERICS FOR NORCO 10/325 ARE AVAILABLE.I HOPE THEY WORK OUT.DO THE JOB AND NO MAJOR COMPLICATIONS.SO WHAT IS THE STORY ON MALL PHARMACUTICALS? ARE THEY THE MOST PROFITABLE FOR DRUG STORES TO CARRY? BIG BUSINESS-BIG MONEY.HUGE PROFITS.I NEVER REALIZED THE 20%UNACCOUNTABLE FACTOR FOR FILLERS, BINDERS YADDA YADDA. IT REMINDS ME OF MYSTERY MEAT ie HOT DOGS. WHO KNOWS WHAT IS IN THEM.I MEAN REALLY.LOOKING AT THE 1/4 PROFITS ONE PHARMACY MADE IN THE ONE QUARTER UP 14%.MAJOR OLD BIG TIME CHAIN -THE ONE ON EVERY CORNER IN SEVERAL MILES IN PROXEMITY OF EACH OTHER.WELL I'LL SIGN OFF FOR KNOW-AND CHECK BACK IN A BIT
ONCE AGAIN THANK YOU ALL-
August 20, 2006 - 2:18am
#16
Don't Feel Bad
Don't feel bad. I've had the iching as well. I thought it was me. I don't remember seeing that in the side effects sheet.
August 20, 2006 - 7:00am
#17
vicodin es....
I have been taking the generic 7.5/750, m360 brand and noticed it does not begin working as fast as the watson387, that and it seems weaker. It seems odd to me, but the m360 takes up to an hour and half to being working. Here's my question, as dumb as it may sound: Do you think it would matter if you crush it first? Like, maybe it takes longer to break down in your body because of whatever they use it it as fillers? Or will it not make a difference? I have only had these 2 generic versions, so I can't really compare it to the name brand. Thanks.
August 20, 2006 - 9:18am
#18
michele, to answer your
michele,
to answer your question, yes it will definitely begin working quicker if you "crush" it up. at the same time it will also not last as long if you choose to crush it.
and yes it is POSSIBLE for the binders/fillers to cause a long onset time.
hope this helps.
phisher
all thoughts and opinions expressed are those of my own and should not be mistaken for medical advice. i am not a doctor nor a pharmacist. all medical questions should be answered by a licensed pharmacist, doctor, or primary care manager.
August 20, 2006 - 11:21am
#19
Great, thanks for the info!
Great, thanks for the info!
May 2, 2007 - 7:12pm
#20
Thought I Was Crazy Too !!!
I have always liked the generic (357) better than the Vicodin brand, Thought I was nuts until I read this. I suppose it has much to do with ones own body Chemistry.......
Anyway, Thanks for the great Info !!!
The once knew everything,
Now I know nothing !!
May 2, 2007 - 8:49pm
#21
pain Notebook
Phisher, Just wanted to say thanks for the notebook link! I have beeen looking for somthing just like that! PERFECTO!!
--MUDEBONE--
May 2, 2007 - 10:21pm
#22
me too
I didn't know so many other people had problems with the yellow Watson 10/325. I have been getting that for awhile now-I have to take 2 and it doesn't help. When I take other things like the blue 10's, or even 4 5's it is so much better but I can't keep taking the 5's like that cause too much tylenol. I go to CVS and that's what they have. Is there a different generic for Norco 10/325 besides those? I want to ask my pharm for something different now that I know I can. Maybe it will actually help more!
well if it makes you feel any better... i dont think you are crazy.
as long as i can remeber people have complained about mallinckrodt, (this is who makes the M360). their generics are carried by alot of pharms as you well know primarly b/c they are one of the cheaper co.s and also b/c they produce such a wide variety of meds. both of these factor in to make them a popular choice.
this is a highly debated subject and is far from black and white. there is some difference in the bioequiv between manufactors and hopefully incognito will respond to this question b/c he has some excellent insight regarding this matter.
as far as solutions to this problem... here are the possibilties that come to mind; switch pharms back to your old one, place request at current pharm for "special order generics", request brand only, talk to dr about situation and see if he/she will bump up dossage to compensate.
hope this helps. have a great day.